Cost vs benefit. People need to eat but don't need a TDI Jetta to live.

And then that's where everything falls apart in reality. It's only environmentally responsible until it starts to negatively affect the financial and general lives of enough people. After that the environment can suck it up and deal with it on its own again.

 

And when emissions kill enough people that is economic enough? One car is not a problem, but how about 400,000 cars?

 

And then that's where everything falls apart in reality. It's only environmentally responsible until it starts to negatively affect the financial and general lives of enough people. After that the environment can suck it up and deal with it on its own again.

Right on target but there's plenty of slack in the US to have both now with oil so cheap. If things change then the environment will be the first thing to go if it means financial survival. We could have just let things continue as they were in the 70's but I'm glad my children can only read about it in books or watch videos on it now instead of living in it.

I side with Theodore on the environment not because I'm a zealot but because Conservation of Natural Resources is the smart way to make money in the long run.
http://www.theodoreroosevelt.org/site/c.elKSIdOWIiJ8H/b.8344385/k.114A/The_Conservationist.htm

 

Interesting read and related links here.

http://www.vox.com/2015/9/21/9365667/volkswagen-clean-diesel-recall-passenger-cars

Volkswagen hasn't explained exactly why it cheated, but outside analysts have a good guess. The NOx emission controls likely degraded the cars' performance when they were switched on — the engines ran hotter, wore out more quickly, and got poorer mileage. Some experts have suggested that the emission controls may have affected the cars' torque and acceleration, making them less fun to drive. (Indeed, some individual car owners have been known to disable their cars' emission controls to boost performance, though this is against the law.)

As factory rated before.

VW’s 2.0L TDI generates 140 willing horses and a burly 236 lb.-ft. (320 Nm) of torque, along with impressive 30/42 mpg (7.8-5.6 L/100 km) city/highway with the 6-speed automatic.

I still have not been able to pin down any definitive official numbers but so far the forum and chat threads I have found are suggesting that the engine could be sitting closer to 115 Hp Vs 140 hp and the fuel efficiency takes a 20 - 30%+ drop depending on what vehicle it's in.

To me that's a pretty serious hit in the fuel economy and driving performance in a smaller vehicle.

 

side with Theodore on the environment not because I'm a zealot but because Conservation of Natural Resources is the smart way to make money in the long run.

Also a big fan of Roosevelt's work as well being he spent time here in my state. But to be fair I do not think he was an over the top naturalist or conservationalist.

The impressions I have always gotten from historical accounts was that he believed heavily in the moderation of use and in replacing what you took in terms of natural resources where justified but not to the point of the unrealistic to irrational locking up and hiding away of nature and its resources from human interaction and use as much of the environmental movement's push for today.

I also do not know of him as being easily swayed in reacting to events or actions without solid proof that what was being presented to him was a bonafide and real problem that needed actions to be taken over it much as I try to act and react in my life.

The way I see it with emissions standards is it's like most manufacturing processes. Tolerance X can be had for Y$ but .1X tolerance cost 10Y$ so is that next step actually justified and worth the added work plus costs involved because on paper and by the numbers it will make things look 10 times better than the first step even though in reality there will only be at best a 9% improvement in actual conditions over the initial actions that made a 90% improvement.

From my views I just don't see Roosevelt the conservationist falling for the national 10X more spending and effort that will be required to make a 9% addition to the initial work and efforts put forth.

 

I also do not know of him as being easily swayed in reacting to events or actions without solid proof that what was being presented to him was a bonafide and real problem that needed actions to be taken over it much as I try to act and react in my life.

There is no doubt that the EPA is filled with zealots and needs to have their chain yanked a bit but I think Teddy would blow a gasket if he saw the world of filth the USA was becoming in the 70's. How much we do is as much a political discussion as technical. Computing power was once expensive and impractical for the masses, electric cars are increasing becoming affordable for the masses so I see no need to bend over backwards for the ICE engine. If BMW can meet the spec's then the physics of 'Clean Diesel' are possible just not cheap today.

 

I have no major issues with the overall clean up work that has been done since the 70's. The big issue I have now is the next levels they want to achieve are not what I can call realistic practical or cost effective.


We've already cleaned things up by a factor of ten or better and things are good. The next factor of ten they want is neither cheap or easy to do and in many aspects not justifiably warranted making the remaining gains to be had not what I can say are worth the financial and overall largely unrealistic restrictions that it places on everyone.
Especially so when we as a country have far greater societal issues that need attention immediately like our educational, power and in many cities water systems.

 

I have no major issues with the overall clean up work that has been done since the 70's. The big issue I have now is the next levels they want to achieve are not what I can call realistic practical or cost effective.


We've already cleaned things up by a factor of ten or better and things are good. The next factor of ten they want is neither cheap or easy to do and in many aspects not justifiably warranted making the remaining gains to be had not what I can say are worth the financial and overall largely unrealistic restrictions that it places on everyone.
Especially so when we as a country have far greater societal issues that need attention immediately like our educational, power and in many cities water systems.

Your view from a great big "square state" with less than 500,000 people is a bit skewed vs some of us living in or near urban areas or major manufacturing facilities.

 

We have over 750,000 now thank you.

As for living in a big city that's not my problem. As far as I know no one is holding you prisoner there to suffer in your own mass filth.

I simply do not like being forced to pay for things that I do not need or be restricted by rules that serve no purpose where I live because a bunch of idiots someplace else want to pack themselves together so tight they can't breath due to their own stink.

 

We have over 750,000 now thank you.

As for living in a big city that's not my problem. As far as I know no one is holding you prisoner there to suffer in your own mass filth.

I simply do not like being forced to pay for things that I do not need or be restricted by rules that serve no purpose where I live because a bunch of idiots someplace else want to pack themselves together so tight they can't breath due to their own stink.

We got the message. It doesn't appear to be hindering you. What you don't agree with you ignore or disable. Why spend so much time complaining?

EDIT: 750,000! Where do you put everyone? That place must be crowded by now. I'll bet you have to turn down your high beams for at least two cars as you drive home from the bar.

PS. Do they still allow charity Black Jack at the bars in North Dakota?

 

We got the message. It doesn't appear to be hindering you. What you don't agree with you ignore or disable. Why spend so much time complaining?

I've solved all the other problems in my life so I don't have much for intellectual challenges any more.

No idea on the blackjack though. I have not been in a bar in almost a year now and when I was I never paid attention to the blackjack tables any way.

 

I have no major issues with the overall clean up work that has been done since the 70's. The big issue I have now is the next levels they want to achieve are not what I can call realistic practical or cost effective.

There is a nuanced way to handle the problem but I don't think VW has helped the side of it's too much by cheating. It would have been better just to say it's impossible to keep the cost at a level the little guy could afford and leave a wanting public without a product to force change if it's needed. Instead they ran a propaganda and lies based sham that fooled what could have been future allies into total enemies for a quick buck.

 

There is a nuanced way to handle the problem but I don't think VW has helped the side of it's too much by cheating. It would have been better just to say it's impossible to keep the cost at a level the little guy could afford and leave a wanting public without a product to force change if it's needed. Instead they ran a propaganda and lies based sham that fooled what could have been future allies into total enemies for a quick buck.

I am betting they blame this on a rouge marketing and product development team and that "corporate" volkswagon had not endorsed such tactics. That all employees had been trained on corporate ethics and best practices and there was nothing more that VW could do. The CEO has already set the stage in his resignation speech:

"I am shocked by the events of the past few days," Winterkorn said in a statement released Wednesday. "Above all, I am stunned that misconduct on such a scale was possible in the Volkswagen Group."

VW could deny responsibility and point to individuals perpetrators. The first evidence will be when VW starts lawsuits against individual employees.

 

I am betting they blame this on a rouge marketing and product development team and that "corporate" volkswagon had not endorsed such tactics. That all employees had been trained on corporate ethics and best practices and there was nothing more that VW could do. The CEO has already set the stage in his resignation speech:

VW could deny responsibility and point to individuals perpetrators. The first evidence will be when VW starts lawsuits against individual employees.

It won't work. Judging from the comments of the GM guy the developement of this 'system' started as a operation project in about 2007. If low-level engineers and technicians can design and install a complete cheating system under the nose of management for millions of cars, across many product lines, in many countries for many years I wouldn't buy a spoon from VW.

http://www.commondreams.org/news/20...ssions-cheating-scandal-low-level-technicians

 

It won't work. Judging from the comments of the GM guy the developement of this 'system' started as a operation project in about 2007. If low-level engineers and technicians can design and install a complete cheating system under the nose of management for millions of cars, across many product lines, in many countries for many years I wouldn't buy a spoon from VW.

http://www.commondreams.org/news/20...ssions-cheating-scandal-low-level-technicians

I didn't say it would work but it is the only straw they had to grasp at. Your article says they ware moving in the execution of this strategy than I expected.

Those mid-level engineers should have realized that the slippery bottom feeders that were incentivizing them to do the dirty deed would be the first tho throw them under the bus when things went sour.

 

You guys are forgetting something: "too big to fail".

There will be individual sacrifices, but ultimately, they (VW as an organization and brand) will be protected -- likely by numerous governments.

This whole fiasco is cronyism* at its worst...and the fat lady hasn't sung yet.

*Caused by cronyism, and will end through cronyism.

 

So far it's just a scratch on the surface, the revelations have it but already in itself.

The internal audit function at Volkswagen calculated for days, slogging through emails and meeting minutes. The VW-investigators met with explosive documents. Apparently you knew in top circles Manager since 2007 of the exhaust manipulations.

It is inter alia a letter from Bosch in 2007, as the prohibited software was built by VW. Bosch had the software supplied to Volkswagen, which was, however, provided only for testing purposes and not for normal driving.

After image-on-Sunday-information Bosch shared time with Volkswagen, that the proposed use is illegal. Did the supplier giant from the criminal goings of his customers? And as VW responded to the warning of Bosch? "As part of the business relationship with Volkswagen, we are obliged to maintain confidentiality," says a spokesman for the Stuttgart-based company on request.

The operation shows that the circle of initiates at VW must be larger than previously thought, when even the supplier was aware of the machinations.

► At the latest but warned than a VW engineer 2011. emission levels prior to the illegal practices, they should have reacted.

This is clear from a first report of the internal audit of the car manufacturer, writes the "Frankfurter Allgemeine Sonntagszeitung", citing supervisory circles.

from Google translate

http://www.bild.de/geld/wirtschaft/...1-vor-abgas-manipulationen-42736218.bild.html

 

You guys are forgetting something: "too big to fail".

There will be individual sacrifices, but ultimately, they (VW as an organization and brand) will be protected -- likely by numerous governments.

This whole fiasco is cronyism* at its worst...and the fat lady hasn't sung yet.

*Caused by cronyism, and will end through cronyism.

The Germans will bailout VW but for the rest of the world it's a perfect storm of greed, and evil Germans.

 

*Caused by cronyism, and will end through cronyism.

Unless you design "cronyism" differently, it is hard to see how that's the case here.

 

More reporting about how this was started at VW.

http://www.autonews.com/article/201...legal-software-use-in-diesel-cars-report-says

Bild am Sonntag said the roots of the crisis were planted in 2005 when then-VW brand chief Wolfgang Bernhard wanted VW to develop a new diesel engine for the U.S. market. Bernhard recruited Audi engineer Rudolf Krebs who developed a prototype that performed well in tests in South Africa in 2006, the paper said.

Bernhard and Krebs argued that the only way to make the engine meet U.S. emission standards was to employ in the engine system an AdBlue urea solution used on larger diesel models such as the Passat and Touareg, according to the report.
...
Winterkorn, Audi's former CEO, asked Audi development boss Ulrich Hackenberg and Audi engine boss Wolfgang Hatz to move to VW's Wolfsburg headquarters and continue development work on the engine, Bild am Sonntag said.

The engine then ended up in VW Group diesels with its engine software manipulated to fool diesel emissions tests in the U.S.