So if I say that by pushing your accelerator pedal down further your vehicle will go over the speed limit thus breaking a law make this post worthy of deletion too?

Just curious as to where we are drawing the line on what advice that would break a law is allowable and what's not in sort of a hypocrisy test of this sites management.

 

That's one hell of a nasty broad brush!

FYI -- I'm atheist. No dog in the fight.

Bad joke, poorly worded. My bad. Point is, this is a story because it shakes our faith in something we could almost take for granted - good German engineering.

 

People who repeatedly violate the rules disrespect the forum and its members. They drag down the entire group.

An incomplete thought brownout. Shall we take them out back and administer 40 lashes, or just string them up on the yardarm?

 

Bad joke, poorly worded. My bad. Point is, this is a story because it shakes our faith in something we could almost take for granted - good German engineering.

Not for me, I see great German engineering in this hack. The degree of code stealth that I believe will be uncovered will be very impressive. To my knowledge none of the thousands of 'tuners' who have modded the VW ECM systems for years have found it by code inspection.

 

My bad. Point is, this is a story because it shakes our faith in something we could almost take for granted - good German engineering.

It does not shake mine one bit. If anything to me this exemplifies German engineering. They built and designed their product to deliver what the primary customer base wanted which was a small fuel efficient yet fun to drive diesel engine.

After that they met the requirements of the ruling parties rules that specified it had to pass their emissions test which are still seen as being a money and power grab as they are real honest environmental good stewardship.

What I am speculating on is all though the EPA is having a fit about this it wont be too long before the real truth about how meeting their rules affects the product for the worse in the eyes of their customers, which for whatever reason gets lost in the bureaucracy, is ultimately who pays everyone's paychecks.

As for the mass effect that this before and after emission compliance example could hold if the with out and with emissions compliance numbers show a very noticeable drop in fuel efficiency and engine power it wont take much for the average public to rationalize that their compliant vehicles are also likely suffering from similar less than optimal fuel economy and performance.

A good example of this is how Oldsmobile came out with a very crappy 350 diesel engine for their line of vehicles and that single bad design made a major hit on every auto manufacturers line of diesel vehicles for decades afterward.
Given that if these VW diesels show a substantial drop in efficiency and performance it wont take much for the the average person to change their view of a clean engine is an efficient engine to a emissions compliant engine is costing me more money for fuel and maintenance than it should and I really don't like that.

About a generation ago emissions compliance hit automakers and the average public's first observation was that it made their vehicle use way more fuel and lose a lot of power. Now a generation has passed that has largely been fed the propaganda that a clean engine is a efficient engine to the point they believe it true, despite what the last generation and most any educated and experienced mechanic says otherwise, and this comes along showing that belief may be false and when the mass public is given a reason to suspect they have been lied to for sometime things tend to go very bad for the parties that will be seen to have been the ones lying to them for financial gains.

 

About a generation ago emissions compliance hit automakers and the average public's first observation was that it made their vehicle use way more fuel and lose a lot of power. Now a generation has passed that has largely been fed the propaganda that a clean engine is a efficient engine to the point they believe it true, despite what the last generation and most any educated and experienced mechanic says otherwise, and this comes along showing that belief may be false and when the mass public is given a reason to suspect they have been lied to for sometime things tend to go very bad for the parties that will be seen to have been the ones lying to them for financial gains.

Yes, people would tend to blame VW for perpetuating lies and propaganda if the EPA standard is truly impossible to meet. The EPA is not blameless if they made an impossible to meet standard but we as the citizens of this country could change that if it was more important than breathing clean(er) air.

 

The EPA is not blameless if they made an impossible to meet standard but we as the citizens of this country could change that if it was more important than breathing clean(er) air.

Some of the "clean diesel" cars performed well wihtin EPA guildelines in the independent study without defeat devices.

 

Some of the "clean diesel" cars performed well wihtin EPA guildelines in the independent study without defeat devices.

How do you know?

 

Been readin'

 

Been readin'

I mean, how do you know which "clean diesels" do not have defeat devices?

 

They are the ones that perform within spec in the lab and on the road test. Otherwise, there would be no need.

 

It use to be by weight. We always bought 3/4 ton pickups, because they didn’t have many controls on them.

How strict are they on semis now?

 

Some of the "clean diesel" cars performed well wihtin EPA guildelines in the independent study without defeat devices.

Yes they did but the loss of power and efficiency was very noticeable on the VW design. There are two major competing standards, emissions and efficiency and it seems VW could not have both with the 2.0 'clean Diesel' design without a cheat.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...wagen-scandal-could-kill-off-diesel-cars.html

 

Yes they did but the loss of power and efficiency was very noticeable on the VW design. There are two major competing standards, emissions and efficiency and it seems VW could not have both with the 2.0 'clean Diesel' design without a cheat.

Yeah, I got that from the 8 pages of discussion. My point; other clean diesels, for example, BMW X5, met the standard in both the testing lab and during the road tests, without loss of power or efficiency.

 

Not for me, I see great German engineering in this hack. The degree of code stealth that I believe will be uncovered will be very impressive. To my knowledge none of the thousands of 'tuners' who have modded the VW ECM systems for years have found it by code inspection.

It does not shake mine one bit. If anything to me this exemplifies German engineering. They built and designed their product to deliver what the primary customer base wanted which was a small fuel efficient yet fun to drive diesel engine.

Geez guys, defrauding customers and local governments is not good engineering, no matter how clever. Good engineering produces a solution that meets specifications, not evades them.

 

Other clean diesels, for example, BMW X5, met the standard in both the testing lab and during the road tests, without loss of power or efficiency.

http://www.bmwusa.com/bmw/xmodels/x5#Models-Spec

Yes, (with a 3.0-liter, inline 6-cylinder, that's advertised for power) it did so the EPA standards are NOT impossible in that power range and engine size but the smaller VW design (2.0-liter, inline 4-cylinder) clearly some sort of problem (if we believe the cheat was a fix instead of a design specification like I do) meeting the required EPA standards on both counts while still being a 'fun' car to drive and to also save fuel.

 

Geez guys, defrauding customers and local governments is not good engineering, no matter how clever. Good engineering produces a solution that meets specifications, not evades them.

Unethical, wrong, illegal but still you can admire the end product if you've seen a few hacks that don't come close to this for brazenness in a commercial product. IMHO this was not just a 'fix' for something that wasn't working. It was planned, designed and used good engineering practices to deliver a solid product to the needed specifications. Complete Blackhat for sure but where do you think the people who could build something this like this come from? There're not off the street or some programming forum, look who's recruiting at the worlds best schools for engineering talent.

 

I predict a huge market for legal chips to fit the VWs. The owners will put the legal chip in for their emission test and put the original chip back in for the rest of the year.

And, yes, I already expected a State mandate forcing owners to comply, no matter what the price.

 

There's ready a third party device you can use that can be removed quickly for other diesels.

I guess the EPA wallet them slide.

 

Unethical, wrong, illegal but still you can admire the end product ...

I can admire the end product at a purely technical level, like you might admire the ovens at Auschwitz. But "just following orders" to engineer whatever you are asked for is not a defense. Obeying illegal orders makes you just as much a criminal as the boss.