That future has largely been here for quite some time. I now routinely deal with PhD students that can't do 8th grade algebra. A significant fraction of undergraduate students in Computer Science don't have the math proficiency that someone leaving elementary school used to be expected to have.

You might recall the "quiz" that one of my fellow profs gave his Calc-I students:

https://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/threads/math-literacy-tanks-even-further.106968/

He (and others) still gives the quiz and the scores have slid further.

Most distressing is that the people that do the worst on it are the declared math majors -- most of whom are getting a math degree so that they can teach K-12 math!

It's just an example of what I call The Cash Register Syndrome.

https://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/...lassroom-these-days.121006/page-2#post-967076

when I was finishing my diploma program, our math instructor was getting so fed up with lack of math skills from new high school grads that he was giving them tests to assess whether they could handle fractions. How do you expect to learn calculus and understand a concept such as matrices if you cannot visualize basic graphs and rely on calculator for everything?

As far as practical applications - how many people properly understand exponential growth? That single curve is a powerful thing, especially of it is talking about your money... compound interest... credit card debt...etc My math profeciency comes in handy every day.

 

I have used a LOT of what I learned at all levels of my education.

I think most of you have used a lot more than you think you have, too.

Don't get me wrong. I made it a point to say that many of the classes I took in school didn't help me in my job. I have used most of what I have learned in my personal life; chemistry, physics, economics, english, math. About the only thing I haven't really needed is history.

The most important thing I learned was how to think things out and find information about things I don't know.

Math is very important in everyday life; especially if that everyday life includes electronics.

 

A lot of people are quick to proclaim that algebra has no applicability to most peoples' everyday lives.

The evidence that people are hindered by a lack of math and algebra skills in their everyday lives is about us all the time.

 

The evidence that people are hindered by a lack of math and algebra skills in their everyday lives is about us all the time.

Example of a need for algebra skill in everyday life please.

 

Example of a need for algebra skill in everyday life please.

I hate to repeat myself, but financial decisions are one such major example. It is very easy to figure out the BS banks are selling you if you know your exponential functions... One does not even really need to calculate any numbers, you can easily see the long term outcomes in your head. I would say that is a huge need in today's world.

 

Stupid tends to rise faster in the ranks of business than intelligence ever does.

And stupid feels threatened by intelligence, so the intelligent are often (maybe not consciously) treated as a necessary evil. Treated like mushrooms; kept in the dark and fed a bunch of crap.

Or maybe it's just me.

 

This topic is an example of the sorry state of the school system in the U.S.

However, I've done a lot of research on this and I'm going to post a new topic of its own later.

Stay tuned for more.

 

I hate to repeat myself, but financial decisions are one such major example. It is very easy to figure out the BS banks are selling you if you know your exponential functions... One does not even really need to calculate any numbers, you can easily see the long term outcomes in your head. I would say that is a huge need in today's world.

Perhaps you can, but I don't think the average person can do exponential functions in his head, even if he knows algebra.

 

As far as what you need or do not need as adults ....

I can remember thinking and stating I would have no need of english or composition skills as an adult.

I kicked my self many times when writing a report or email to those in the middle and upper echelons of the service because of the revisions required to ensure they got the message. It's like I went back to basics to renew my knowled

I also reminded those in my charge that when they move up, there are a lot of skills they needed to do the job that were not directly related to electronics.

stupid pays tuition... that is good for smart ones. the more people pay, the more affordable education becomes.

No, stupid takes out loans and grants. That leaves less loans and grants for others. More grants means more money for the colleges which translates to higher tuition.

 

And stupid feels threatened by intelligence, so the intelligent are often (maybe not consciously) treated as a necessary evil. Treated like mushrooms; kept in the dark and fed a bunch of crap.

Or maybe it's just me.

I used to work in the elevator business and your post hit the nail squarely on the head.

Most elevator contractors hire through a union called International Union Of Elevator Constructors (IUEC) and it's one of most nepotistic fraternities in organized labor. Unless you're related to someone in the trade, you have to pay someone off under the table in order to get a job.

Contractors who hire through IUEC are called an "Agency Shop" and the only way they can hire anyone is exclusively through the union. Furthermore, many of the IUEC's candidates are terribly deficient in their knowledge of electrical/electronics and it's very difficult to procure qualified personnel.

Case in point, one construction worker (and a site supervisor) couldn't read a simple architectural drawing of the layout of the hoistway in a 4 floor apartment building. As a result, the guide rails were not lined up with the center of the hoistway and the whole rail job had to be redone.

Since IUEC is part of the construction trades -which is well known to be infested with thugs and hoodlums-, they dare anyone to put up any opposition and it's a wonder they haven't been busted under the RICO Act. However, they also shovel millions to politicians at all levels of government and they've become a load of spoiled and untouchable brats.

 

Example of a need for algebra skill in everyday life please.

One from just today: My wife wants to tile our bathroom and the little foyer between it and the two bedrooms on either side of it. How many gallons of tile adhesive does she need? That's a simple algebra problem that a huge fraction of people can't figure out how to solve.

I did reserve studies for homeowners associations for many years and only a fraction of people could figure out something like how much a 15% hike in water rates affected their monthly HOA dues.

How many slats, rails, and posts will a fence surrounding the back yard need? How much concrete will be needed? How big can the footings be if you are cost constrained to a certain amount of concrete?

How much do you need to budget for gas for a 1200 mile vacation in a car that averages 22 mpg?

How much money do you need to save for retirement each month to have a reasonable expectation of achieving your retirement goals.

 

Perhaps you can, but I don't think the average person can do exponential functions in his head, even if he knows algebra.

Just being aware of exponential growth effects is often enough.

You can also use back-of-the-envelope approximations such as the rule of 72.

 

stupid pays tuition... that is good for smart ones. the more people pay, the more affordable education becomes. poorly funded education will limit what smart ones can learn...

If that were the case, then why has the tuition been going up at two to four times the rate of inflation for nearly four decades?

If more people paying meant education became more affordable, then tuition rates should have plummeted.

In 1983 the cost of full-time tuition at the Colorado School of Mines was $802/semester (anything over 10.5 hours was "full-time"). That's under $2000 in today's dollars. Today the tuition is over $8000/semester, despite the enrollment being about three times as large.

Since a HUGE fraction of students are 20-ish with no meaningful real-world experience and lack the math skills to evaluate what they are getting into when they sign the promissory notes for their subsidized student loans that they don't have to pay anything down on or make any payments for years to come, they are very insensitive to cost. The schools know this. So they know they can keep jacking tuition as a few times the rate of inflation for decades on end because they know that people will demand that the grant and loan limits be increased to keep pace.

 

Just being aware of exponential growth effects is often enough.

You can also use back-of-the-envelope approximations such as the rule of 72.

Thank you, that is exactly what I meant. I had long conversatikns about this with someone who considered himself financially literate and he had no idea how to assess car loans...

 

Thank you, that is exactly what I meant. I had long conversatikns about this with someone who considered himself financially literate and he had no idea how to assess car loans...

And even people in the business of financial advising often don't understand the math and, instead, just regurgitate what various snake-oil salesmen in the industry spout.

About, oh, 15 years ago, give or take, there was a Sunday talk show that was sponsored by a local investment firm. Unlike most of the similar shows today, this one wasn't just a paid advertisement. They took callers and actually tried to give them answers to their questions, most of which did not include any reference to their products and services. In fact, one thing that impressed me about them was that the investment firm bought paid advertising time during the commercials and that was largely the extent of their advertising.

But these guys were always going on and on about how the Roth IRA was the better investment as long as you had enough time for the returns to make up for the taxes paid up front. Not once did they even mention that the tax rates at either end made any difference, when yet they are about the only thing that DOES make a difference. How long you have it invested is immaterial (as long as you satisfy the legal requirements).

So I called in to make that point, stating that the money available from a traditional IRA was the amount available for investing, times the growth factor over the time of the investment, times the fraction you get to keep after taxes. For a Roth, it was the amount available for investing, times the fraction you get to keep after taxes, times the growth factor over the time of the investment. If your tax rate is the same at either end, then it's a wash since multiplication is commutative. How long you have it invested makes no difference -- all that matters are any differences between the tax rates at each end. I then mentioned that while Roth contributions are taxed at or very near your marginal rate, traditional IRA distributions are taxed at much closer to the overall tax rate in retirement, which is generally only a fraction of the marginal rate during the working years. They told me I didn't understand how things worked and hung up on me -- then told their listeners that I was obviously a plant from a competing firm.

 

One from just today: My wife wants to tile our bathroom and the little foyer between it and the two bedrooms on either side of it. How many gallons of tile adhesive does she need? That's a simple algebra problem that a huge fraction of people can't figure out how to solve.

I did reserve studies for homeowners associations for many years and only a fraction of people could figure out something like how much a 15% hike in water rates affected their monthly HOA dues.

How many slats, rails, and posts will a fence surrounding the back yard need? How much concrete will be needed? How big can the footings be if you are cost constrained to a certain amount of concrete?

How much do you need to budget for gas for a 1200 mile vacation in a car that averages 22 mpg?

How much money do you need to save for retirement each month to have a reasonable expectation of achieving your retirement goals.

Most of that would seem to require mostly simple arithmetic, not college level algebra.

 

o I called in to make that point, stating that the money available from a traditional IRA was the amount available for investing, times the growth factor over the time of the investment, times the fraction you get to keep after taxes. For a Roth, it was the amount available for investing, times the fraction you get to keep after taxes, times the growth factor over the time of the investment. If your tax rate is the same at either end, then it's a wash since multiplication is commutative. How long you have it invested makes no difference -- all that matters are any differences between the tax rates at each end. I then mentioned that while Roth contributions are taxed at or very near your marginal rate, traditional IRA distributions are taxed at much closer to the overall tax rate in retirement, which is generally only a fraction of the marginal rate during the working years.

That's an interesting result that I hadn't really realized.

 

Most of that would seem to require mostly simple arithmetic, not college level algebra.

First off, "college algebra" is a huge misnomer. Look at most any college algebra text and you will see that it covers what is normally (or at least what use to be normally) covered in 7th and 8th grade algebra.

Second, something like taking the formula for the area of a circle given the radius and then using that to find the radius needed to have a certain area is NOT arithmetic, it is algebra.

The concepts of algebra are what matter -- and what people are increasingly lacking. The notion of taking relationships in one form and manipulating them to answer questions of a different form.

Ohm's Law is a perfect example. How many people have we see seen here on this site that are completely dependent on that stupid wheel of formulas because they lack the algebra skills to take

V = IR

and find I if they are given V and R.

Let alone combining

V = IR and P=VI to find the power dissipated when 12 V is applied across a 1 kΩ resistor.

Basic algebra that far, fat too many people taking college engineering courses increasingly can't handle.

In the everyday realm, I've run into numerous people who can figure out their car's mileage only because someone has told them what to do (not given them an equation, because many can't handle the math involved in that). I even remember back when gas prices spiked here several years ago that one of the national news organization (CBS, I think) spent broadcast time during their 3-minute top of the hour radio news segment giving a tutorial on how to calculate your car's mileage. But even with that, they can't figure out how far they can go on a tank of gas because no one has given them THAT equation and they lack the algebra skills to solve for it.

 

First off, "college algebra" is a huge misnomer. Look at most any college algebra text and you will see that it covers what is normally (or at least what use to be normally) covered in 7th and 8th grade algebra.

Fair enough.
I was referring to intermediate level college algebra, which the article mentioned at the start of this thread, but if we are basically talking high school level (or less), that's a different story.
I certainly think that anyone with a high school education should have passed a high school basic level algebra course.
But if they don't have that, then they should indeed have to gain that level of proficiency to get a college degree.

I was just questioning the need for everyone having to pass a higher level course.

 

I remember the days of college preparatory courses in high school. That didn't impede the rest of the student body from having algebra II in high school.

Maybe it's time to do a survey of the higher paid positions to see how much higher math they use in the course of a year. Surely they must understand what's being produced.

Then you can pose to the student population what KSA's (Knowledge, Skills, and Abilities) and time they need to be successful at that position.