The PELL system is a federal run system, passed by congress. Senator Pell of Rhode Island is the namesake of the bill authorizing it.

Students are no more guilty than a billionaire taking his deductions on his 1040 form.

Students who have loans take an above the line deduction for their interest on their 1040 as well as any other authorized deduction they can take ... just like any other American Taxpayer.

Nobody has their hand in anyone's pocket.

Where does the money come from? Is there a secret money tree?

Here's a link for you:

http://www.nbcnews.com/feature/fres...ents-who-dont-graduate-analysis-finds-n412431

 

The PELL system is a federal run system, passed by congress. Senator Pell of Rhode Island is the namesake of the bill authorizing it.



Students who have loans take an above the line deduction for their interest on their 1040 as well as any other authorized deduction they can take ... just like any other American Taxpayer.



Where does the money come from? Is there a secret money tree?

It comes from government appropriations. Does the military have their hand in your pocket? Does your local school district? The street department? How about the FDA - approving medications for you? Or the USDA, inspecting the meat processing plants cut your meat? What is your definition of having a hand in your pocket?

If you don't understand the difference between theft and the Department of Education's Pell Grant process, then our school systems have failed you.

 

The difference is which group is getting your tax dollars ... The non-Pell 65% don't have their hand in your pocket, unless it's your child, then you can address that one yourself.

Sorry, I thought this was a question:

What percentage of those receiving Pell grants graduate?

Having said that, it is a lot of money.
About 15 billion of it is to supplement what was lost from the states in the crash. Now I think the states have baked it in.
There is already 1.3 trillion in student debt so I'm not so sure that's a fix. Maybe another thread on higher education costs.
I think they are going to screw around until they get replaced with on line college. What a nightmare - thousands and thousands of unemployed intellectuals.

 

But, We can't get them out of high school to get them into debt with college.

 

last i checked, an average graduate can barely read and cannot do fractions... they can however demand that they be heard without having a clear message to convey.

There is no simple solution to any of this as it seems that this situation is advantageous to someone. I do however see a trend the more handouts there are, the less people try as they expect things as a given.

 

this situation is advantageous to someone.

Absolutely: it creates a class of people who are permanently tied down to a big government. A perpetuating modern day slavery.

 

last i checked, an average graduate can barely read and cannot do fractions... they can however demand that they be heard without having a clear message to convey.

And if you want a simple code just write in cursive.

There is no simple solution to any of this as it seems that this situation is advantageous to someone. I do however see a trend the more handouts there are, the less people try as they expect things as a given.

I'm not so sure it's an advantage or we would have come up with an easy fix by now.
I agree with the handouts, but I think it is probably deeper than that. But even so how would you get it back to where it was in the 70's without starving a bunch of people to death.
Edit: and starting a revolt.

 

Why is it that when you help individual citizens it's called "welfare" and giving them something for nothing? But when you give "subsidies" and giant tax breaks to wealthy corporations and millionaires/billionaires it's not called "welfare"?
Much of the "subsidies" that were first given to them to help through start ups and hard times are still being given even though they are no longer needed.

 

Why is it that when you help individual citizens it's called "welfare" and giving them something for nothing? But when you give "subsidies" and giant tax breaks to wealthy corporations and millionaires/billionaires it's not called "welfare"?
Much of the "subsidies" that were first given to them to help through start ups and hard times are still being given even though they are no longer needed.

A huge fraction of the corn subsidies and sugar subsidies are going to Archer Daniels Midland, Cargill and King Ranch. It may not be direct but ADM and Cargill are apparently paying well below harvest prices for corn and expecting the farmer to make is small profit from the subsidy that the government hands out. In many cases, the big companies lease the farmer's land for a few dollars per acre and then make the farmer sign over the subsidy check to the "company". Last I heard, the list of subsidies is about 2X the value of welfare. And, since states are now distributing federal welfare dollars, many are going to families that are not in need. A recent NPR episode highlighted how Michigan distributes their money. A big chunk is ear-marked as college aid to those who go to private schools. Families earning less than $200k/year are eligible. Families were interviewed and nobody seemed to be appalled that their school aid package was federal welfare money.

 

@shortbus

Welfare is a subsidy. Pell grants are subsidies.

How many Pell grants are used for remedial classes? Should their old high school pay for that for those who just left high school three months prior? No, probably not as it comes from a different program at the Dept of education.

 

@GopherT

Milk subsidies in the northeast keeps the prices down. The other subsidies keep the price of food down. CRP is a subsidy to land owners so they don't plant on some of their land.

Follow the money back to the critter that proposed it.

 

@GopherT

The other subsidies keep the price of food down.

Why is cheap milk needed? Few doctors recommend milk, most recommend against milk and suggest water instead.

Price of corn is $3.50/bushel. A bushel of corn is about 56 pounds. That converts to $0.0446 per pound. Less than a nickel.

Now, grind up that corn into corn meal and it is suddenly selling for more than $1.00/pound.
Now look at corn flakes instead, there, a 16 oz box is more than $3. Oh, there are other ingredients like high fructose corn sweetener but that sells for roughly the price of corn so there is no difference. Add another $0.05 for energy on corn flakes (if that).

The main costs of food are packaging, advertising and shelf-space rental from the retailer - not raw materials. A rule of thumb, about 5% of the starch-based food you buy (grain subsidized food you buy) is raw materials.

How much lower do we need these grains to be if raw materials are such a small fraction of the manufacturers costs?

Do you have a propensity to drink Kool-aid? Who influenced your childhood?

 

Why is cheap milk needed?

Like most government programs, once established, it's tough to kill. The milk subsidy was around in the 1970s.

Do you remember the Carter years when inflation was 21%?

Do you think I'm for government subsidies?

I don't drink kool-aid. I'm a child of the 50s.

Did you know that if the government allows a military member on active duty to go to college for two years they have to obligate 4 years of service upon completion. A 2 to 1 payback.

Nice rundown on the Cost of Goods. You forgot the price of labor (including all levels of employees from CEO down), the fixed costs like utilities and asset acquisition, and finally liabilities. Of course the major food companies have multiple revenue streams to share in alot of those costs and shareholders who want a return on their investment.

 

And if you want a simple code just write in cursive.

Too true. Many school systems no longer teach cursive at all. Fortunately, my daughter's school teaches cursive first, before printing, in kindergarten and we definitely liked the results.

 

Welfare is a subsidy

But you guys say it is "like slavery" and "holding people back"(meaning black people, but most people I've known on welfare are white). So it's OK to have corporations in slavery and holding them back? It can't/shouldn't be one way for one group and another for the other group. Oh, oh I get it, the corporations pay a bigger kick back and higher congress people after they leave "public service". Now I understand why private citizen welfare is bad.

 

Milk subsidies in the northeast keeps the prices down. T

And it keeps cost of living sky high.

Subsidies don't create value.

 

What do you see about these two charts? Mmmm, feel the Bern.

 

What do you see about these two charts? Mmmm, feel the Bern.

What I love about this chart is the tax cuts that reagan made. Allowing a CEO who earned $1M and took home $300k in 1980 to take home $720k by 1988. The Republicans keep saying, Reagan cut taxes and it stimulated the economy, lets do it again. Unfortunately, we would have to crack out the welfare checkbook to allow CEOs to more than double their take-home pay again (an Reagan-Era equivalent boost to millionaire's take-home pay would require zero taxes AND a $400k welfare check on each Million of earnings). Apparently, that's ok, they know how to manage money better than the poor (and it will eventually trickle down).

 

@GopherT

In 1987 the election of George H W Bush and the democrat controlled congress caused the lower group to jump from zero to 15 percent.

What should the marginal tax rates be for the upper and lower incomes?

 

@GopherT

In 1987 the election of George H W Bush and the democrat controlled congress caused the lower group to jump from zero to 15 percent.

What should the marginal tax rates be for the upper and lower incomes?

First, how did you decide I was an expert in budgeting and government? My comment above was, if you need a detailed explanation, to point out that an equivalent step change to increase take-home pay of the wealthy as Reagan generated simply cannot happen again (at the current tax rate).

Second, What SHOULD they be? What kind of childish / naive question is that? Is that the first (only), critical question that comes to mind when you set a budget? Your simple-minded view of a problem is sweet.