To present another viewpoint, the purpose of automation is so that humans don't have to do drudge work.
The ultimate goal would be for all humans to have to do no work at all.

Maybe I am odd, but I do not see that as the ultimate goal, but rather the end of civilization. I like to work and do things. The worse least satisfying part of my career was when I got into administration. Now, THAT was drudgery.

To each his own. Some people enjoy administration and at least they are doing something then, I guess.

 

Oh, I am not advocating the end of "work".
We will always be able to find things that are enjoyable to do and keep us busy.
The concept of working to earn a wage will be obsolete.

 

Oh, I am not advocating the end of "work".
We will always be able to find things that are enjoyable to do and keep us busy.
The concept of working to earn a wage will be obsolete.

You mean once everything that can be invented has been invented.

I think that prediction was made in the late 19th century. It was only 10 years away.

 

Oh, I am not advocating the end of "work".
We will always be able to find things that are enjoyable to do and keep us busy.
The concept of working to earn a wage will be obsolete.

The problem I see is that extremely few people are of the "driven" type. If you satisfy every single need that an individual has, like housing, medical care, availability of education, and a daily all-you-can-eat-buffet; most would self-destruct through one or more of the seven capital sins. Or live aimless and goal-less lives. And of course, there would be people that would take advantage of all the available time they will have and try to do great things like scientific research or art.... but I'm willing to bet they would represent less than 10% of the population.

 

The problem I see is that extremely few people are of the "driven" type. If you satisfy every single need that an individual has, like housing, medical care, availability of education, and a daily all-you-can-eat-buffet; most would self-destruct through one or more of the seven capital sins. Or live aimless and goal-less lives. And of course, there would be people that would take advantage of all the available time they will have and try to do great things like scientific research or art.... but I'm willing to bet they would represent less than 10% of the population.

I see a problem with setting the bar with "driven" people. What are they driven by? There are some driven people at work. Most of them are driven by need to control others. They do incredible damage and the system is set up to promote them and their behavior. I am not driven by this so I will not get ahead. You can say I am driven by my want of solitude and peace and quiet and by my need to preserve my peace of mind. How do you know what motivates a person?

If you read "Little Prince"... The alcoholic there said he drank to forget that he is an alcoholic... Life is complicated. We get trapped in behaviours rewarded by society.

 

Most of them are driven by need to control others. They do incredible damage and the system is set up to promote them and their behavior. I am not driven by this so I will not get ahead

Like I said, most people will have a love affair with the capital sins.

My use of the word "driven" was meant in a positive context. Maybe I should've used the term "practice of virtue" ... in your case I see your seeking of peace and solitude as good goal. What little you have shown us in this place about your character tells me that you're one who likes to delve into the depth of things, and who does not like to trivialize any subject being discussed. That characteristic by itself is quite telling of what I consider a "driven" person with a desire for virtue, at least in one of its many forms.

 

I see a problem with setting the bar with "driven" people. What are they driven by? There are some driven people at work. Most of them are driven by need to control others. They do incredible damage and the system is set up to promote them and their behavior. I am not driven by this so I will not get ahead. You can say I am driven by my want of solitude and peace and quiet and by my need to preserve my peace of mind. How do you know what motivates a person?

If you read "Little Prince"... The alcoholic there said he drank to forget that he is an alcoholic... Life is complicated. We get trapped in behaviours rewarded by society.

So how will this utpoia where everyone's needs are met without anyone having to do any work going to magically eliminate the drive that these people have to control others?

 

Like I said, most people will have a love affair with the capital sins.

My use of the word "driven" was meant in a positive context. Maybe I should've used the term "practice of virtue" ... in your case I see your seeking of peace and solitude as good goal. What little you have shown us in this place about your character tells me that you're one who likes to delve into the depth of things, and who does not like to trivialize any subject being discussed. That characteristic by itself is quite telling of what I consider a "driven" person with a desire for virtue, at least in one of its many forms.

Thank you for this kind characteristic. I find myself wanting to qualify words used so that there is a common consensus in a discussion. It makes for a smoother conversation.

So how will this utpoia where everyone's needs are met without anyone having to do any work going to magically eliminate the drive that these people have to control others?

I did not adress this in my post at all. I have no answer. There are power hungry people. One way of addressing this is removing the reward for their behavior. The other of course is drugs. With growing drug industry and booming physiological signs monitoring I can see more and more therapy suggested for all sorts of reasons. Where it goes will depend on who screams the loudest. I dont complain about anything. Do you?

 

One way of addressing this is removing the reward for their behavior.

I hear that a Gulag helps.

 

My question would be can I allocate just one of the robots as my income? So now I've gave up doing my job for a machine to do it? If you give up your job to a robot how do we all survive with no pay. You take away all these people hollering for $15 an hour, Now there is a thing that doesn't require money to function but can do what you were doing better and faster. Who's money will they collect now? YOU WON"T HAVE ANY!
Brzrkr

 

I did not adress this in my post at all. I have no answer. There are power hungry people. One way of addressing this is removing the reward for their behavior. The other of course is drugs. With growing drug industry and booming physiological signs monitoring I can see more and more therapy suggested for all sorts of reasons. Where it goes will depend on who screams the loudest. I dont complain about anything. Do you?

The point you brought up though is worthy of consideration. If a person is driven by a need to control others, then controlling others IS the reward for their behavior. Notice that the other course you mentioned (monitoring and suggesting therapy and using drugs) is, by it's very nature, a huge degree of control over others -- so it would follow that this wonderful utopia is going to have all kinds of opportunities for people that feel the need to control others to find a way to do so and be rewarded quite handsomely for doing it.

 

I hear that a Gulag helps.

I would ask my greatgrandfather but he is dead. From little that I know of him it did not help that much.

 

so it would follow that this wonderful utopia is going to have all kinds of opportunities for people that feel the need to control others to find a way to do so and be rewarded quite handsomely for doing it.

This will not lead to utopia as you said. Those in control will always want that control.... Some way some how there will always be a thumb to hold you and me down.

thinking about running for governor of Alabama
Brzrkr

 

The point you brought up though is worthy of consideration. If a person is driven by a need to control others, then controlling others IS the reward for their behavior. Notice that the other course you mentioned (monitoring and suggesting therapy and using drugs) is, by it's very nature, a huge degree of control over others -- so it would follow that this wonderful utopia is going to have all kinds of opportunities for people that feel the need to control others to find a way to do so and be rewarded quite handsomely for doing it.

That is why I tried to make a distinction between vice and virtue. There are behaviors that are personally and/or socially destructive, and others that promote edification. The latter is what I call virtue. And to follow your point, I do not think that a utopia is possible for as long as humans are human. IMHO, if we ever reach a point of complete and perfect automation in which every single need is taken care of for every individual on earth, I think that disaster will ensue if an automated and impartial system of justice is not also established. And also some sort of population control based on an individual's merits.

But no, I do not think we will ever see a society like that, simply because its preceding rulers would never allow it, and the population as a whole would rebel. I'm not trying to be pessimistic, but I think that with all of the resources that complete automation will be able to offer, the world is going to end up looking a lot like that Elysium movie with Matt Damon.

 

I do not think that a utopia is possible for as long as humans are human.

The utopia will occur not when men are freed from effort, but when men are freed from coercion as to where to apply their efforts.

I've got an idea as to how and when this will happen, but it won't be in my lifetime.

 

The utopia will occur not when men are freed from effort, but when men are freed from coercion as to where to apply their efforts.

I've got an idea as to how and when this will happen, but it won't be in my lifetime.

For your sake, i hope, by men, you mean "persons"

 

For your sake, i hope, by men, you mean "persons"

I use "men" in the classical sense -- as in mankind.

This includes women.

I'm not a progressive. I have no desire to change my vocabulary to suit others' agendas.

 

The utopia will occur not when men are freed from effort, but when men are freed from coercion as to where to apply their efforts.

I've got an idea as to how and when this will happen, but it won't be in my lifetime.

Not in your lifetime for your employees either. I remember how you talk about them.

You Ayn Rander's always talk about "utopia" when that isn't the goal. The goal is fair treatment or fair pay for the work done to make you and people like you money. There is no mention of you and others that have the power to "give all" of "your" profit, but just to make things fair. That is utopia for the working man. With out the workers you at the top(Ayn Rander's) would be in the same place as those you hire and employ, poor and struggling.

 

This begs the hardest question of all time: "what is fair, and what's not?"

 

This begs the hardest question of all time: "what is fair, and what's not?"

Communist Economics is fair.
THEY pretend to pay us, we pretend to work.

and we have this example of 'fairness'.