Request thread for very old ICs (cant find datasheet)

Discussion in 'Electronics Resources' started by takao21203, Apr 1, 2017.

  1. takao21203

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    I plan to ask about several IC here

    Starting with the TMS3716

    I have several 8042 8051 etc simple controllers just no type number these are for televisions with OEM house number,
    anybody who could test these?

    My idea is to try the oscillator pins probably at different pins for different ICs

    And many others. Some mask programmed = mostly ewaste but some have external memory option.
     
  2. takao21203

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    The next IC its japanese 2mm pitch HA11839 (Hitachi) most likely used for consumer electronics PCB

    Todays special some very old logic IC and some I think PROM IC
     
  3. takao21203

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    A few more obscure kinds in the pipeline...if you can provide datasheet please.
     
  4. dl324

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    uA723C voltage regulator
    MC14073 same as CD4073 triple 3 input AND gate, the one on the right looks counterfeit
    N82S115 512x8 PROM; looks counterfeit
     
  5. dl324

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    Wouldn't upload in previous post...
     
  6. bertus

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    Here is the 74135 datapage
     
  7. takao21203

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    thank you these small PDIPs are just for :) bcz theyre very old

    I will post ICs here for which I cant find datasheet

    Why do you think the PROM is counterfeit? Theres not really a market for small PDIP PROMs these days.
     
  8. dl324

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    The lettering isn't aligned and looks like it's smeared and could be easily removed. The top surface of the package looks like it was blacktopped with imperfections.

    The lettering on the MC14073 on the right looks smudged and looks like it could also have been blacktopped. The one on the left also looks a bit suspicious.

    The 74135 look a bit suspicious too. The lettering isn't consistent between the three devices, and the lower one looks like it has texture from blacktopping.

    Rough surfaces and irregular lettering are signs of counterfeiting.
     
  9. takao21203

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    Its more like you have never seen these old IC kinds before. How do you think the lettering was done 40 years ago?
    Not to speak of the volumes produced in the years when this technology started to evolve ever heard catch 22? So they didnt have automatic production lines controlled by a rack with boards with chips inside because they simply didnt have them available so, manual labour.

    Guess these were quite expensive.

    Btw

    I have soviet ICs too quite an effort to lookup the inscriptions. Seriously they deviate so much in the making, the kind of epoxy used, would be quite difficult to forge + care for the NOS effect as well you couldnt do that economically.

    I will probably dump off batches for low price soon. For sure these very old IC from the early days, I would ask for more than cents simply because they are not available all that much + you can get modern revisions for lowcost if you needed them.

    There are certain ICs I had no luck finding a datasheet and many of these are customer ICs or mask programmed so couldnt really sell these for high price. TMS1100 for instance is pretty useless since its mask programmed. I have some listings already for these ICs. But many not yet listed or simply not making much sense for instance some ATI Wonder VGA controller with badly mangled pins and anyway nobody would want or need to build such a VGA system these days using this old chip.
     
  10. dl324

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    I have 70's vintage Motorola parts in my stock that were acquired from reputable sources in the 70's; long before counterfeiting was a problem. I also have parts from TI, Fairchild, Signetics, National Semiconductor, Intel, and AMD to name some.

    Upon reflection, I believe both of the Motorola parts are counterfeit. The stylized M for their logo is in a circle on the parts I checked.
     
  11. takao21203

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    We
    Well i give it a go let you believe whatever you wanted to believe
     
  12. dl324

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    I checked some more Motorola parts and I found some that don't have the stylized M in a circle. But, note that the Motorola parts appear to have an uneven texture. The texture on the top should typically match the texture on the bottom because the package is molded. Also look at the mold marks and alignment marks to make sure they don't have residue from the material used for blacktopping and that they're of consistent size between the parts.

    When they sandblast parts to remove original marking, they don't usually protect the leads, so the tops of the pins (the shoulder area) will have pitting.
     
  13. dl324

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    One other thing I noticed is that the markings on the Motorola parts I checked, none of them had the logo by the date code:
    m18201413.jpg MC14011BCP.jpg MC14023B.jpg MC14530CP.jpg
    Versus your part:
    upload_2017-4-4_8-21-8.png
     
  14. takao21203

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    Ok but there have been and there it has countless different places of IC fabrication often dies are not packed immediately at place of die production and in your pictures there's a lot variation it's like you say what you have on hands is all possible variation?

    The ICS I've shown are quite skuffy means there are bits chipped off from corners and who seriously wants to counterfeit these kind of IC? As a practical joke? DPRK making some money using forced labour filing off and handpainting each small IC?

    It's not even worth low-cost labour not to speak profits a fake IC most likely simply has no die or a too small die for a high power part and there are just a few known occurances such as empty 386 main board cache IC

    These days it's often cob for cheap ic
     
  15. dl324

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    The point I was trying to make is that company often have standards. A part label not conforming to norms would be suspicious. Like smudged letters (which are cured if they're ink before being shipped), inconsistent font, unexpected date code format, irregular surface, pitted leads, etc.
    No joke, it is being done. These are from a NASA report:
    upload_2017-4-4_9-0-36.png
    upload_2017-4-4_9-0-8.png
    upload_2017-4-4_9-0-56.png

    Notice the comment in the last picture about the $0.005 parts being salvaged.

    You can play ostrich if you want, but counterfeiting is widespread and a lot of it ends up on eBay, AliExpress, Amazon, ... You can believe whatever you want...

    Even reputable places have been known to get caught. Lately, every order I've placed with Newark has come a letter signed by their CEO attesting to the authenticity of the parts they shipped.
     
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  16. takao21203

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    NASA report now you're kidding me i know most of the images easy prey via Google search.

    Why counterfeit there's plenty genuine old IC?

    And yes i have tms9900 which i believe have been refurbished with a fresh logo.

    The IC is genuine but the logo is new + added spelling mistake.

    As well the mentioned faulty 2732 EPROMs i was able to catch up on these before they made way to customer

    I don't charge collectors prices so what counts is if the die is genuine aka the IC works .

    Btw the above small ICS are not on sale at present just showing these on a forum thread and indeed these are quite old and in 1973 they manually put the part numbers guess as well the legs are quite mangled it's not I'm trying to sell these for 40 dollar a piece + claiming these would be mint and unused

    I've sold a batch 80pcs NCR dram ICS just yesterday for 20 dollars that's 0.25 per IC looking at the virtual unavailability I'd say the pricing is fair play.
     
  17. takao21203

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    NCR

    Nippon Cash Registers
     
  18. dl324

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    Google it and you can find reports from reputable sources. There are organizations in addition to NASA investigating counterfeit parts. NASA and the US Military are especially vigilant because it can be a matter of life and death for them or cost hundreds of millions of dollars.

    NASA
    Brian Hughitt
    Office of Safety and Mission Assurance:
    08_Hughitt_Counterfeit Electronics - All the World's a Fake.pdf

    US Dept of Energy
    Office of Nuclear Safety (AU-30)
    Office of Environment, Health, Safety and Security (AU)
    U.S.Department of Energy
    1000 Independence Avenue, SW
    Washington, DC 20585
    counterfeitDOE-HDBK-1221-2016.pdf

    SMTA International Conference
    Harold “Woody” Hewett
    Electro-Comp Services, Inc.
    Clearwater, FL, USA
    EDIT: removed email address.
    methods_detection_counterfeit_components_smta.pdf

    Components Technology Institute Inc.
    Counterfeit Components Avoidance Program
    counterfeitCCAP-101InspectExamplesA6.pdf
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2017
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  19. bertus

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    Hello,

    Here I have some more info to add to @dl324 posted PDF's.

    Bertus
     
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  20. takao21203

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    thanks for the PDF attached. I will study these.

    But actually I also ask for datasheets of the ICs listed here (not the small TTL Ics).

    Another one SN29769 or with P2 suffix SN29769

    Mostly the older IC kinds come from desolate inventories which have been scrapped and sold off, mostly ICs for products no longer manufactured but also all kinds of stockpiles no longer needed.

    Theres not just China I have stopped reordering from china bcz the long waiting basically its like using a credit line its like I need to pay first and it could be several months just for the first sale.

    Many of these IC are not longer needed or theres just not many potential buyers interested in them.
    The 8080 is not so special actually and not particulary powerful but people get nostalgic feelings (including me).

    I think if any possible, there should be some of these common parts on the market at affordable price, if old inventories exist.
    Theres no point hoarding old ICs and asking for moon prices and wait until the epoxy becomes brittle.

    Some more posts I put the ICs in a single row each and hope at least a few can become possible to descrbe

    All silicon chips have some ppm duds over time you get failures if the ICs are not factory fresh most likely there will be more failures
     
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