Re: HH0 "numbers"

BoyntonStu

Joined Apr 18, 2009
52
You missed the "Important Part": The oxygen sensors are not meant to be water sensors, and thus the ECU/PCM sees the engine runnin, too rich.

O2 Sensors are designed to give a value relative to the combustion efficiency running on the fuel the vehicle was designed for, it is a closed loop system (Airflow, throttle, injectors, and exhaust measurement) .

Altering the fuel the vehicle was designed for causes the ECU to think the engine is running too rich, based on faulty data received from the oxygen sensors. The feedback loop is broken, and the engine runs lean.

I notice you did not address the point of about the car getting only 4 mpg of liquid Hydrogen. It isn't an efficient fuel for an internal combustion engine.

--ETA: If this were not the case, there would be no "O2 sensor modifications" promoted within the HHO communities.
You are confusing 2 separate issues; Altitude and HHO.


I have been discussing the use of duct tape to restrict the air and to fool the car into thinking it is at high altitude. No HHO, No leaning.

I have hands on experience over many tanks of gas that shows MPG improvement with the duct tape. My next step will be to install a butterfly and a solenoid to flip the butterfly open for full power.


HHO: I have not installed it in my car. I am the designer of the Amoeba Cell which is a very small (if not the smallest) and efficient HHO generator capable of 2+ LPM.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IC83XDnC4vc etc.


I have no first hand knowledge of increased MPG using HHO.

Of the thousands of HHO experimenters, I know 2 that I trust.

They both claim increased MPG and I believe them but I would not say that increase MPG is a fact until I replicate the results.

As for emissions, I have seen videos of the Emission Station printouts of several installations. In addition NASA conducted a test on a Cadillac V-8 and they saw reduced emissions.


Read it here:

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19770016170_1977016170.pdf

FWIW

BoyntonStu
 

thingmaker3

Joined May 16, 2005
5,083
You are confusing 2 separate issues; Altitude and HHO.

I have been discussing the use of duct tape to restrict the air and to fool the car into thinking it is at high altitude. No HHO, No leaning.
This type of confusion often results when a thread goes off-topic. In future, it would be better to open a separate thread for discussion of tangent material.
In addition NASA conducted a test on a Cadillac V-8 and they saw reduced emissions.

Read it here:

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19770016170_1977016170.pdf
Now was that so hard? Thank you for finally providing some documentation. I shall read it carefully, as will many other members here.
 

thingmaker3

Joined May 16, 2005
5,083
The cited reference does not deal with HHO, but with hydrogen alone. The engine studied was a '69. The catalyitic converter was not invented until '73.

Got anything more recent? Got anything dealing with HHO instead of hydrogen?
 

BoyntonStu

Joined Apr 18, 2009
52
The cited reference does not deal with HHO, but with hydrogen alone. The engine studied was a '69. The catalyitic converter was not invented until '73.

Got anything more recent? Got anything dealing with HHO instead of hydrogen?
A few points:

HHO is 2/3 hydrogen.

The emission reductions would not be affected much by adding a little O2.

The fact remains that adding Hydrogen reduces emissions.

The '69 Caddy had a carb, no FI, no ECU, O2 sensors, MAP, MAF, etc.

Do some research on "HHO and emissions" and you will find printouts of tests.

BoyntonStu

P.S. Try a piece of duct tape. It works great on my car.
 

thingmaker3

Joined May 16, 2005
5,083
A few points:

HHO is 2/3 hydrogen.
Hydrogen is 3/3 hydrogen. Not the same thing at all, are they?

The emission reductions would not be affected much by adding a little O2.
You have a chemical equation for that one? Or another study to share? And since when one mole out of three "a little?"

The fact remains that adding Hydrogen reduces emissions.
Facts can be documented. Share your documentation.

The '69 Caddy had a carb, no FI, no ECU, O2 sensors, MAP, MAF, etc.
Which is part of why I reject your claim.

Do some research on "HHO and emissions" and you will find printouts of tests.
I'm not the one trying to prove your claim. Run your own search.
 

thatoneguy

Joined Feb 19, 2009
6,359
Why do cars tend to get better mileage when it is raining out?

I'm sure most everybody that has made a long trip (1,000 miles+) has noticed this.

Split into a seperate topic if needed, but the reason is somewhat pertinent to the "200mpg Carburetor" of the 70s and 80s and HHO of today.
 

beenthere

Joined Apr 20, 2004
15,819
To Drayden7973:

Sorry, I've been out due to illness. The whole issues of water hydrolysis has been gone over to some point beyond exhaustion. If you wish to pursue it to any extent, please do not feel as if any of us here have some interest in preventing it.

The links below are a representative but not exhaustive list of the discussions we have had to recent date about electrolysis for use in increasing mileage. While the list is not complete, I would think that the subject has been dealt with to exhaustion. This subject is not likely to open up again until someone has some concrete results to show.

Please take the time to read through these threads. You will have a much better idea of what is likely/possible to do. If our various responses seem discouraging, consider that we do have a great deal of experience in the area of electronics. We have a pretty good idea of what is possible. The same may be said for the impossible.

Please note that we are willing to help build and refine circuits for such purpose, while remaining skeptical about the ultimate outcome. We are here to help spread knowledge around, not to protect against progress that will cost oil interests money. We have not been coopted by some alphabetical government agency.

Please remember that any device that promises an output greater than the input is quite extraordinary. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. To date, we have claims, but not one bit of proof. We will not function as a sounding board for you to advance your beliefs.

We are aware that videos claiming to demonstrate various "free energy" or "over unity" devices exist in profusion. Take the time to watch a movie such as "Jurrasic Park" or one of the "Matrix" series. Think of how nicely presented and realistic the effects were in the movies. Imagine how hard it is to produce a video that can "show" literally anything happening. That does not constitute proof of anything at all.

Unless you have some actual results to share, please don't expect us to waste further time with this subject.

Links to threads:

http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=14396

http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=14535

http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=14064

http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=11879

http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=13206

http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=15539

http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=14794

http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=14933

http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=13207

http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=15043

http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=15713

http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=15859

http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=12711

http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=16792

http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=12643


Some of the more recent threads have been most illuminating:

http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=18833

http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=17319

http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=9812

http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=18547

http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=19717

http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=19859
 

Wendy

Joined Mar 24, 2008
23,415
The issue has never been whether it can be made, but at what efficiency.

Rules:
1.You can't win.
2.You can't break even.
3.You can't quit the game.
 

beenthere

Joined Apr 20, 2004
15,819
To BoytonStu,

We have claims like this:
A few points:

HHO is 2/3 hydrogen.

The emission reductions would not be affected much by adding a little O2.

The fact remains that adding Hydrogen reduces emissions.

The '69 Caddy had a carb, no FI, no ECU, O2 sensors, MAP, MAF, etc.

Do some research on "HHO and emissions" and you will find printouts of tests.

BoyntonStu

P.S. Try a piece of duct tape. It works great on my car.
made all the time. The common thread is that the "researcher" never presents any meaningful data, circuits, or any other substantial information. Just the claims of improved performance.

It is also interesting that no testing is done in a public method, in which the actual action of the hydrolyzer and verifiable mileage increase is demonstrated. Data on a '69 Caddy tends not to support the claim, as no further development was done.

The significant point is that if the device/method actually worked, it would be under mass production and recognized as a significant step forward.
 

thatoneguy

Joined Feb 19, 2009
6,359
I fully think HHO can be made, and if you light it bang, but making it work on a newer engine is a different animal
Yes, HHO can be generated. Yes, it burns. We agree on that much.

The issue is the source of the energy to produce HHO, and the impact on vehicle performance.

A mechanic working on this a bit back calculated an additional 3 HP load on the engine to generate the power needed to generate a volume of HHO. The same mechanic did a few calculations, using ideal hydrogen combustion energy/volume, assuming 100% efficiency, and ignoring losses. The result was a net loss of 1 Horsepower.

In reality, the losses are much greater.

Gasoline has 3x the energy for a given volume than liquid Hydrogen does. The BMW Hydrogen 7, which is designed to run on both gasoline and hydrogen gets 4MPG from liquid hydrogen, and 16MPG on gasoline. The limited production engine also has mechanical noise issues when running on Hydrogen due to the faster burn rate.

That leaves two points, considering the cost of the vehicle and the dismal performance:
1) If mixing Hydrogen with gasoline could improve performance in ANY WAY, wouldn't that be a feature of the Hydrogen 7?
2) HHO, cannot be generated at the volume required to run, which is why the Hydrogen 7 does not have any type of onboard H2 generator.

I must ask:

  • Why are you Convinced that HHO will do great things for you?
  • What background do you have with electronics, Internal Combustion Engine operation, thermodynamics, or any other related field?
The reason for the two questions is not meant as an insult. When you google combinations of "Hydrogen gasoline HHO", anywhere between 500,000 and 6 million hits are shown. There are mountains of information available on the topic. People working on building "One that works" stop by here frequently for help with the electronics. NONE have shown a measureable improvement with actual data. The one person that did claim a 3mpg increase (no data, other than "it goes further on a tank" type) ended up with a blown engine a few months later for his efforts.

If there is a way to generate Hydrogen using less energy than "Traditional Methods", I'd be very happy to learn of it! However, the current approach of "Hydrolyzers" and HHO have proved patently to be failures. Based on websites and google hits, I would guess over 50,000 people either have tried, or are attempting to perfect/fix/improve onboard HHO. To date, there has not been one scientifically documented case of improvement. The only "proof" is word of mouth, often from somebody willing to sell you "The Secret", so they can recoup the cost of their failed experiment.

Maybe try to think outside the box. Create some other method of producing HHO than the ones that have been tried to death and failed.

This forum has no connections to government, big oil, HAARP, or Hurricane Machines. The membership varies from self taught to lifetime engineers to Professors. There is a huge amount of knowledge and experience here willing to help people who want to learn. Rehashing HHO, only to see members waste a large amount of money, ruin their car, give up, or throw insults does grow tiresome.
 
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