New EV Charging Schemes

Thread Starter

MrAl

Joined Jun 17, 2014
8,548
I meant to post this before but didnt get around to it and then while discussing something else here i remembered i wante to post it.

There has come about a new idea about charging electric vehicles which have become more popular now and more 'charging stations' have been popping up around the world especially in places where air pollution is a really big problem.

The new idea is to have the battery completely replaced rather than have it charged by the owner of the vehicle. This means the owner will not own the battery just the car itself. This in turn could reduce the price of the car also.
The main problems though are:
1. Charging a battery takes time, and owners dont like waiting hours for a charge.
2. Charging at home is ok for some owners but there is a large percentage of people who dont ahve a driveway so they ahve to charge on the street, which means running an extension cord across the sidewalk, and this is not really legal in many areas as well as having all the problems associated with extension cords carrying lots of current.
3. The area infrastructure is not set up for a lot of people drawing a ton of current from the line for long periods of time. Heck , they barely manage as it is without any charging.

These have led to the idea of replacing the battery at a charging station rather than have the owner charge it themselves.
Benefits:
1. They dont have to wait for a battery to charge.
2. They dont have to charge at home.
3. They dont have to stress the already stressed infrastructure in their area. The batteries will be charged elsewhere and shipped to the charging stations. The owners pay a fee for the replacement 'charge' not the entire battery.

This is already happening in some areas of the world where the problems above are just too great to overcome any other way, and some of them have air pollution problems so they really need electric vehicles.
 

Ian0

Joined Aug 7, 2020
3,754
Current price of diesel = £1.28/litre. 1 litre of diesel = 10kWh. Efficiency of a diesel engine ~40%, so about 32p/kWh.
This corresponds nicely to the amount of kWh/km used by vehicles, as electric cars are about 10% taller (so 10% more aerodynamic drag), and about 40% heavier than diesels: electric cars use about 10% more kWh/km.

At the moment electric vehicles are considerably more expensive to buy, and the manufacturers tell us that the saving are then made up by the cost of recharging, and quote 5p/kWh tariffs for electricity. However, these 5p/kWh tariffs are only available for 3 or 4 hours at night. Most of the rest of the day 15p/kWh is more likely.

Charging at charging stations is more like 40p/kWh, so all the savings have gone. Who's making all the profit? Bulk electricity must be around 5p/kWh. The cost of diesel is cheaper even though it is taxed at 162%, and that tax pays for road maintenance.

Although I agree with the advantages, the cynic in me sees this as a way of recovering the tax that would be lost by charging at home.

I've also seen this mooted for use with primary cells (such as zinc air) which would be reprocessed (in some way), instead of recharged. Zinc air batteries have some advantages over Lithium in weight, recyclability and use of difficult-to-obtain materials.
 

shortbus

Joined Sep 30, 2009
8,952
The new idea is to have the battery completely replaced rather than have it charged by the owner of the vehicle.
Not a new idea at all. I retired from Delphi Packard 15 years ago and it was being talked about there before my retirement for a couple of years. BUT the problem comes from the weight ~600pounds, the size and where the battery is in the car. There is no way, until they come up with a lighter smaller battery that easy simple replacement is going to happen.

This is one of those things just like the "flying cars" I was told was going to happen in the future as a teenager. This time right now is the future they were talking about. How is your flying car running?
 

LowQCab

Joined Nov 6, 2012
1,308
Sit tight guys,
the Technology Bombs are coming soon,
and the current "High-Tech" Batteries will just be a quaint memory.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Thread Starter

MrAl

Joined Jun 17, 2014
8,548
Not a new idea at all. I retired from Delphi Packard 15 years ago and it was being talked about there before my retirement for a couple of years. BUT the problem comes from the weight ~600pounds, the size and where the battery is in the car. There is no way, until they come up with a lighter smaller battery that easy simple replacement is going to happen.

This is one of those things just like the "flying cars" I was told was going to happen in the future as a teenager. This time right now is the future they were talking about. How is your flying car running?
Oh that long ago,? Wow.
But things have changed a lot since then they already have mechanisms designed to swap batteries in cars. The thing looks like a big scissor jack that goes under the car and removes the battery, then i guess later installs a new one. It may lift the car first i dont know or else there is a pit under the car that it can go down into or something like that.
In any case, the battery swap is to be done by machine in regular cars. In mopeds it is done by hand s those batteries are much smaller
 

BobTPH

Joined Jun 5, 2013
4,032
I can’t wait to hear about the fire at a battery swapping station storing a hundred charged EV batteries.

Who knew? They will likely say.

Bob
 

shortbus

Joined Sep 30, 2009
8,952
Oh that long ago,? Wow.
They were also working on making car electrical systems 42 volts. I think that was the voltage, Been quite a while. Things don't happen overnight, they are prototyped and tested for a long time before the public see it happen.
 

crutschow

Joined Mar 14, 2008
28,161
They were also working on making car electrical systems 42 volts
It's interesting that vehicles have what is called a 12V system now, but using three 12V batteries in series gives not a 36V system, but a 42V system (apparently they use the charging voltage as the nominal).
However, apparently 42V systems in autos is felt to be no longer needed so plans for that changeover have been canceled.
 

MrChips

Joined Oct 2, 2009
24,609
Combine cold fusion with room temperature superconductivity and we will be heralding a whole new era in human history.
 

Ian0

Joined Aug 7, 2020
3,754
I can’t wait to hear about the fire at a battery swapping station storing a hundred charged EV batteries.
Any more likely than a fire at a forklift-battery warehouse?
Anyway - which is scarier - a warehouse full of batteries, a huge underground tank full of flammable liquid hydrocarbons, or a member of the public let loose with a charging cable capable of 150kW?
 

ElectricSpidey

Joined Dec 2, 2017
1,961
A warehouse full of batteries, with a huge underground tank of flammable liquid hydrocarbons and a member of the public with a charging cable capable of 150kW. :p

But seriously, watching the evolution of Formula E over the years leads me to believe we will probably end up with fast charging in the long run.
 
Over a decade ago, an Israeli tech startup partnered with Renault to build a vehicle with easy to swap batteries.

There was a long and thorough article on WIRED magazine.

They did deploy both vehicles and battery swap stations, but eventually failed.
I wish I could remember the company name to Google it for further information
 

bwilliams60

Joined Nov 18, 2012
1,419
Electric cars are not going to go away but I do believe like fossil fuel vehicles, there is a lot of smoke and mirrors that takes place. A vehicle can have close to no emissions but what about the factories in other parts of the world that built them? What about all the wasted parts that go into vehicles when techs can't diagnose them. They still have to be produced and the old parts head for the landfill. I am sure that this is a very efficient way to stay green.
So now we have electric. Same story, different dance steps. Same ending. If I spent 60 grand or more on an electric vehicle, it would be a frosty day in hell that you would take part of my car and trade it for someone elses. Sooner or later these batteries die. Who pays for the replacements? Oh wait, that will be built into that nice little money grab for the exchange program. No thank you.
Sticking to fossil fuels for now. Love electricity but .....
 

Thread Starter

MrAl

Joined Jun 17, 2014
8,548
Combine cold fusion with room temperature superconductivity and we will be heralding a whole new era in human history.
Is cold fusion really possible? Well, is there a theory anywhere that says it will work given some ideal conditions?

Yeah there are advances every day now for one thing or another. A lot of work being done in quantum physics with all kinds of nutty stuff that never seemed possible suddenly becomes a reality. Out of everything i think quantum physics is the most interesting because things happen that nobody can explain and it appears that there will never be an adequate explanation due to our limitations on making measurements ... we cant prove some things because there are no experiments that will show the truth about something.
The two slit experiment has always been of interest to me. There are two explanations that "sort of" work and maybe we can say that they actually do work, but those ideas can not explain other quantum phenomena and if they were a real solution they would be able to do that too, which they cant, so they cant be entirely complete.
 

Thread Starter

MrAl

Joined Jun 17, 2014
8,548
They were also working on making car electrical systems 42 volts. I think that was the voltage, Been quite a while. Things don't happen overnight, they are prototyped and tested for a long time before the public see it happen.
I used to like 12v systems but the limitations are a problem, namely the level of current required to operate some mechanisms. As we all know, when we have a particular power level requirement when we double the voltage we halve the current and can double the resistance two times:
P1=V1^2/R1=12^2/2=72 watts
P2=V2^2/R2=24^2/8=72 watts
so the same power can be delivered with a resistance of 4 times the lower voltage systems resistance, and
of course the current requirement is half:
I1=V1/R1=12/2=6 amps
I2=V2/R2=24/8=3 amps

This makes a world of difference in many cases. Thinner wiring, or existing wiring can be used to deliver four times the power or just 2 times the power at reduced source demand.

If the USA went to a 240vac system, it would solve many of our electrical infrastructure problems. IT woudl of course still require extensive modifications around the country like transformer changes.
It is also interesting that most homes already have 230vac (they call it that) but it is not used for everything just higher power appliances, so maybe the switch would have to be in the home wiring and appliances.
My microwave draws 10 amps on one of the higher settings, but at 230v it would only draw 5 amps (if it was modified of course or a different oven purchased). The home wiring would have to be modified at the fuse boxes.
 

Alec_t

Joined Sep 17, 2013
12,309
and cars use lithium-ion.
True. Interestingly, the 2019 model Toyota Corolla Hybrid with a 1.8 litre engine comes with a Lithium-ion traction battery, whereas the one with a 2 litre engine comes with a NiMh battery. Any idea why not both with the same battery chemistry?
 

Thread Starter

MrAl

Joined Jun 17, 2014
8,548
True. Interestingly, the 2019 model Toyota Corolla Hybrid with a 1.8 litre engine comes with a Lithium-ion traction battery, whereas the one with a 2 litre engine comes with a NiMh battery. Any idea why not both with the same battery chemistry?
They cheaped out with the NiMH :)
 

shortbus

Joined Sep 30, 2009
8,952
If the USA went to a 240vac system, it would solve many of our electrical infrastructure problems. IT woudl of course still require extensive modifications around the country like transformer changes.
That will happen about the same time all machine work is changed to Metric. Been in that industry and it still is done by those doing it in inches. Maybe over time if new apprenticeships would ever happen... Too many machines made for inches and too many machinists who have to have their own measuring tools. The only thing that went Metric was the blueprints.
 
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