Ahh.. I didnt even think the motion could cause the sediment to create a short. hrmm.

That could definitely cause a heating problem.

I built a little rocker board today. I connected a piece of pvc to a .75" plywood circle about 1' dia. The 1.5" pvc has a 2" pvc sleeve on it to allow a smoother movement. I can adjust the cam along the radius to change the rocking motion. As well as changing the distance from the hinge gives a pretty good range of motion. Using plywood rather than stock board, the flexibility also adds a gentleness to the motion. Like a spring board.

I may just pulse this one rather than add the charger to it as well.

Any idea at what temperature the sulfation crystals melt/dissolve in the bath?

I was thinking if the sulfates were dissolved in the mixture, the re-combination would be more effective.

u're goinf the wrong way. you are providing with vibration to the plates which is dangerous. please dont do that. i suggest you to work on some kind of electronic device.

 

I am working on an electronic device. I was waiting for your input to see what you had to say about the transducers that we were looking at. I am awaiting a quote and info package from the company. This will allow the 3.26MHz to be directly introduced into the cells via capsule transducer. That will give the frequency for crystal degeneration, while also using the carbine gun approach.

Also, not vibrating. A gentle swishing motion. I don't think this is the wrong way. Mechanical agitation can only help. The process can only help. After all, the sulfation is a physical "growth" the more you get away from the lead, the more surface are to work on and the less the lead will absorb the 3.25MHz and retard the frequency.

 

I am working on an electronic device. I was waiting for your input to see what you had to say about the transducers that we were looking at. I am awaiting a quote and info package from the company. This will allow the 3.26MHz to be directly introduced into the cells via capsule transducer. That will give the frequency for crystal degeneration, while also using the carbine gun approach.

Also, not vibrating. A gentle swishing motion. I don't think this is the wrong way. Mechanical agitation can only help. The process can only help. After all, the sulfation is a physical "growth" the more you get away from the lead, the more surface are to work on and the less the lead will absorb the 3.25MHz and retard the frequency.

are you going to introduce the capsule in the cell through water pouring hole?
thats not enough. you need to give it energy also. let that energy be in the form of electricity. so keep the battery in the charging state. dont charge it too much. keep 13.9v float for it. and keep charge amperes as low as possible. rather shuffle them to find the energy needed. keep the data recorded. give your data and performance at different amperes at 13.9 volts and i will calculate the exact energy needed. also variate the frequency upto 4MHz. slowly. if you get something odd between 3 and 4 mhz at a particular ampere then it is your exact energy and amperage. good luck. waiting for your data and results.

 

Where did you get the 13.9v figure? From thin air?

The manufacturer's datasheet for the battery in question needs to be reviewed for the proper charge voltages/currents, and needs to be compensated by the battery's internal temperature.

They usually give a range of voltages for a type of charge (float, cycle/bulk charge, sometimes absorption charge) along with a temperature and the temperature coefficient, which is typically something like -3mV*number_of_cells/°C.

 

These are 4cell 8v deep cycle batteries. They will be rather un-happy at 13.9v.

The standard desulfator will be connected during testing.

 

These are 4cell 8v deep cycle batteries. They will be rather un-happy at 13.9v.

The standard desulfator will be connected during testing.

the float at 13.9 is a standart one given in many chargers. does deep cycle battery need anything more? i thought 13.9 volts were enough. its voltage per cell. divide 13.9 by 6 ( there are 6 cells in a 12 volt battery and cell voltage is minimum 2.1 volts per cell. we charge upto 2.4-2.5 volts per cell). deep cycle battery resists discharge because its plates are thick and more material is used. this accounts for higher costs also. if they are 4 cel then 2.4-2.5 volt gives you around 10volts. see manual for charge specs. the conventional desulfator is designed for 12 volts. see the necessary modifications or it wont fire good.

 

well i have been discussing this desulfator on another forum and someone pointed out these flaws.

The flaws are (and there may be more)

1) the oscillator will not operate at the frequency you want it to
2) The oscillator has no means to track the magic frequency
3) The drive to the mosfet is insufficient to allow it to switch at anywhere near the frequency you want
4) the inductors are too large for the frequency you want
5) the voltage spiked induced by the circuit will probably damage the oscillator.
6) It cannot provide current spikes the size you require.

this is my proposed circuit but it is full of flaws. i want to eliminate these presented and then continue experimenting further.
any help or suggestions?

http://i820.photobucket.com/albums/zz124/rohitdhamal/Desulfator4046.jpg

 

Basically, throw it out and start over.

 

I think I did that earlier... I told you that you will need separate systems to charge separate units and trigger them at separate times to reach near the frequency you were interested in.

If you can get an oscillator at 1/4 the frequency, you will need four units to charge and fire sequentially to reach the desired rate. A "tuner" unit will have to listen between pulses for the ringing and report to the firing commander to change the rate to the "gunners"

The commander would produce a clock signal that could be sent through a counter ladder to distribute the firing pulses to each successive "gun".

The tuner will listen to the resonant result using a frequency counter and do the math to report the needed rate to the commander.

The gunners would be your charged cap units that will fire when a pulse is received by the commander unit.

Finding the maximum firing rate for each gunner would give you the amount of gunners you need to complete a repeated attack of the given frequency. You may want to add an extra gunner or two to cover your butt.

 

Knowing that fact that a design approach is not working, may also be a step forward. So I second SgtWookie suggestion. Throw it out and start over.

 

Some rough "back of a napkin" calculations are that for 3000 times the frequency, you would require the mosfet to be on for 17ns each 330ns, appropriate inductors would be 330nH and 70nH, and the capacitor around 0.033uF

In the SC article, they use a IRF540N. This has a gate charge of 71nC. By my estimation, if you want to turn the device on and off in (say) 4ns (which for this circuit is probably too slow) then you need a gate current of around 18 amps. That is way too high (the specs suggest that you should expect a turn on time of 11ns and a rise time of 35ns, so lclearly this device is not appropriate) . A mosfet with higher Rds(on) will have lower gate capacitance.

Another random mosfet, ST 5NE10L-1 has a lower gate charge (around 10nC, but a higher Rds(on) of around 0.27 ohms). This *might* be able to be switched on and off fast enough. You would require a gate current of 4A probably.

So, So all you require is a driver capable of delivering a 4A gate current to turn it on and off. This is also a non-trivial exercise (the gate current probably approaches the current you're switching with the mosfet!


Once you have figures all of that out, you need a way to prevent massive RFI as you will have created a very powerful RF transmitter. You will also need to minimise inductance in the leads to the battery or all that power will go precisely nowhere.

Many of the components (the mosfet and the diode at a minimum) will require heatsinking because there will be significant switching losses.

this was an advice given to me on this circuit. can you guys solve this?

 

Ugg.. Use magnetically shielded platinum for the conductors into the batteries.

It seems, if you are going to build an Industrial Desulfinator, this could be worth it.

But if you are going to be developing a product fot the hobbiest, or home user, a different method will have to be developed.

I still think sound is the best way.

I have not heard a reply from the company regarding the drop-ins, so I have started my experiment with just two desulfinators and two sgtWookie method. (baking soda cleaning and new electrolyte)
I am having a problem on which ALUM to use. so that will be compared to the results later.

Ok.. AM I SPELLING "desulfinator" correctly? Is it "desulphator" or "de-sulph-in-a-tor"

help me out here.

Ok:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desulfation

So it is a "Lead Acid Battery Desulfator".

 

Also, there is a product available that uses the 3.26MHz tuned pulse for Desulfation:

http://www.magnalabs.com/sulfation1.htm

With their line of Aero Bat Pacs*, Magna Labs. has created a simple method of generating the required resonant frequency (3.26 megahertz pulse) to breakdown the lead sulfate crystals, allowing the molecules to return to the battery's electrolyte. By creating a wave form with the required 3.26 MHz frequency, coupled with a very fast rise time and a high amplitude pulse, more energy is developed to breakdown sulphation than by any other method believed to exist. This unique approach is now U.S. Patent Pending.
**Tuned to the molecular frequency of the sulphur crystal of 3.26 MHz.

So they are sending a 3.26MHz sinewave into the battery along with a pulse?

 

Also, there is a product available that uses the 3.26MHz tuned pulse for Desulfation:

http://www.magnalabs.com/sulfation1.htm

So they are sending a 3.26MHz sinewave into the battery along with a pulse?

Welcome to two weeks ago; post #50:
http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showpost.php?p=232579&postcount=50

 

......Im going back to bed......

Ugg. I have a real problem with not going back in the thread before posting.

I Apologize.

When I read post 50, I dont remember following the link. I figured it was a clip from an experiment rather than a product from your post. Like "I think 3.26 MHz would be a good freq to use on sulfation crystals.".. Not, "Hey we built this and here it is for sale"

I am still interested in the modulation used for frequency combination. I guess ill have to read the patent.

I am still thinking audio will be a good way to go. It will be worth a try.

 

Some rough "back of a napkin" calculations are that for 3000 times the frequency, you would require the mosfet to be on for 17ns each 330ns, appropriate inductors would be 330nH and 70nH, and the capacitor around 0.033uF

Let's see.
A straight piece of wire 10mm long has an inductance of about 15nH @10MHz, perhaps around 12nH @ 3MHz. So, a straight piece of wire 58.3mm long (2.3 inches) should measure around 70nH.

Oh, wait - if the battery terminals are more than 2.3" apart, you're going to run into trouble with that.

Are you starting to see how some of this becomes rather difficult?

In the SC article, they use a IRF540N. This has a gate charge of 71nC. By my estimation, if you want to turn the device on and off in (say) 4ns (which for this circuit is probably too slow) then you need a gate current of around 18 amps. That is way too high (the specs suggest that you should expect a turn on time of 11ns and a rise time of 35ns, so clearly this device is not appropriate) . A mosfet with higher Rds(on) will have lower gate capacitance.

An IRF540 would be rather absurd to try to get to switch that quickly.

 

[QUOTE
An IRF540 would be rather absurd to try to get to switch that quickly.[/QUOTE]

this is a diferent thing. he wanted to explain an old circuit. that is not ours. can you guys find me out a mosfet handling 4amp and switching at our timimg please? we'l work this circuit out within a month. lets do it!!

 

Are you too busy to read datasheets?

I want to know if you are just trying to replicate the http://www.magnalabs.com/sulfation1.htm

version. It uses your 3.26MHz with high current pulses.

What is yours going to do differently? When you were asked earlier about this, you only relpied that the 3.26MHz was like an 'atom bomb' to sulfates. However the 3.26MHz process still takes weeks to months. I dont see what you are trying to do anymore.

 

Are you too busy to read datasheets?

I want to know if you are just trying to replicate the http://www.magnalabs.com/sulfation1.htm

version. It uses your 3.26MHz with high current pulses.

What is yours going to do differently? When you were asked earlier about this, you only relpied that the 3.26MHz was like an 'atom bomb' to sulfates. However the 3.26MHz process still takes weeks to months. I dont see what you are trying to do anymore.

I was busy last few days, but i was working on how to make it. i have a crude idea..
let me explain..

in the one i was trying to construct, there was a problem of fast switching and amperage that a FET could handle..
also we could drive a Ferite cored transformer to decrease the current and increasing the voltage at our demodulated output.
does this seem working idea?

 

Good to think about.

My little experiment has drawn to a pretty much close.

Dumping, cleaning, and replacing electrolyte did the best job.

The desulfinator worked, it was slow, but it did work.

I have another Idea for another battery.

I will dump the acid, replace with distilled water, then run the desulfinator to see if the sulfate will reincorporate with the water, converting back to electrolyte.