MrAl,

I believe that nature does not use a point as a reference.

I think it uses rotation. I believe rotation sets the angle and direction of dimension.

Which side of the rotation you are on. Left or right. In or out. The in and out happens in both planes just like the left and right.

Current is different from independent charge movement.

If you can detect the electron or proton in the magnetic field, it should be quite easy to tell the difference.

The electron should move much faster.

Also, one should rotate or spiral in one direction and the other, rotate or spiral the other direction.

Hi,

Sorry, but you seem to be stating a bunch of facts but do not show what they are referenced to.
If i say, "One thing is white and the other thing is black", what am i talking about? You have no way of knowing. I have no way of knowing what you are referencing your facts too. Although i am sure they are probably accurate i have no way of knowing why you said these things.

"Nature does not use a point as reference". What made you say that? i either need to know why you said that or see the original text from the post that made you think of saying that.

"Current is different from independent charge movement."
Sure it is, but in other ways it is very similar because the current is made up of a lot of charges. In the formulas we are dealing with, the charges behave as if they were a continuous stream being acted on by the field. The continuous stream (even though it is not really that simple) we call the current.
Thus, it would be good if you elaborated a little to show why you stated this. Otherwise i can not know what your point was.

I really like to hear other points of view but i have to know what sparked their formation or some other context for reference.

I can take a guess at part of your reply, that you were talking about the direction of the field being a rotation rather than emminating from a point. But there is another view that is in regard to a point, and that is that at any point on the north pole surface the field diverges, and at any point on the south pole surface the field converges. Thus, the field does appear to rotate but for reference we need two points: one where it 'starts' and one where it 'ends', even though it does not really end. So the field direction is OUT of the north pole and INTO the south pole of the physical magnet body. So the magnet appears to be some sort of 'generator' that is the cause of the field.
There is no end to a current flow either, as we know of so far, it is always a complete loop. But we still specify a starting point and an ending point which is usually the positive battery terminal and the negative battery terminal. Of course it does not really start or end, but we need two reference points to describe the direction or else we have to resort to 'clockwise' or 'anticlockwise', and then we need to specify the viewing angle as well (viewed from the front might be clockwise but then viewed from the back it would be anticlockwise).

 

Yes, that's the way I showed in the diagram I posted. I have never thought of it the other way.

Hi,

Oh ok that's good. Maybe i didnt notice that until now.

The thing that bothers me now is that the two experiments i found on the web seem to show contradictory information about what now looks like the orientation of the magnet and the direction of the field relative to the north and south poles. If we follow those experiment as they show, first they state that the field direction is from the south pole out and then into the north pole, when really it is OUT of the north pole and INTO the south pole.

 

Pardon me, I didn’t mean to upset you. I was trying to say that rotation is the cause and why we have right-handedness and left-handedness.

With a current carrying conductor in the B field, the charge carriers can’t react to the B field they way they want to. They are confined to the surface of the wire and they are confined to a direction.......that’s why the wire moves.

We are all taught that a current has a magnetic field, fine.

All I’m saying is that the poles of that magnetic field is determined by the current loop rotation.

And that it is possible to change the current magnetic poles, without changing the direction of current. Using rotation.


But a free charge in the B field acts completely different.

Just trying to help, didn’t mean to confuse. Good luck with your experiment.

Oh, I was taught an EXTERNAL magnetic field comes out of the south and back into the north.
But they are changing things all the time.

 

The thing that bothers me now is that the two experiments i found on the web seem to show contradictory information...

Can you supply links to those?

 

Can you supply links to those?

Hi again,

Well unfortunately no, because they actually did have the poles set up correctly i must have looked at it too fast and then later thought of it backwards

If you still want the links i can post them, or just do a quick search on You Tube for:
"Magnetic force on current carrying wire".

You can also see post #19 where i posted the results of one such experiment as a photo of the key moment when the wire moved out from between the two magnet faces.

In fact, here is one such experiment with fairly good details:

 

Pardon me, I didn’t mean to upset you. I was trying to say that rotation is the cause and why we have right-handedness and left-handedness.

With a current carrying conductor in the B field, the charge carriers can’t react to the B field they way they want to. They are confined to the surface of the wire and they are confined to a direction.......that’s why the wire moves.

We are all taught that a current has a magnetic field, fine.

All I’m saying is that the poles of that magnetic field is determined by the current loop rotation.

And that it is possible to change the current magnetic poles, without changing the direction of current. Using rotation.


But a free charge in the B field acts completely different.

Just trying to help, didn’t mean to confuse. Good luck with your experiment.

Oh, I was taught an EXTERNAL magnetic field comes out of the south and back into the north.
But they are changing things all the time.

Hi,

You did not upset me i just could not relate your facts to what i had said earlier and so i had to let you know that. Now it is more clear

 

Hello again,

Here is a short video of the simple experiment with the magnet and the scope electron beam. You can see the beam (the dot on the screen) move down when the north pole of the magnet is brought near the left side of the scope.