Göbekli Tepe - Wikipedia

Scientist still can't fully understand the ruins of Göbekli Tepe as old as 10 century B.C.E 3 layers built one atop the other, and as I recall they believe their are more.

One, how'd they do it and why?

kv

Edit: As well as Aratta - Wikipedia 27th century.

 

As long as their stars revolved around the planets?

It's just such a leap for me to picture the Catholic church accepting such advanced concepts while wallowing in their ignorance for the next 600 years.

I don't think it's such an "advanced concept" especially for group based on faith (belief without proof).

 

I don't think it's such an "advanced concept" especially for group based on faith (belief without proof).

That works for me. Divorcing the logical and/or scientific advances of The Church from logic and/or science sure cuts through my expectations.
I was suffering from the belief that good sense might be infiltrating The Church.

By the way, how are they doing on Divorce lately?
Don't answer that. It's way too Off Topic.

 

As long as their stars revolved around the planets?

It's just such a leap for me to picture the Catholic church accepting such advanced concepts while wallowing in their ignorance for the next 600 years.

Ignorance? ... yet another huge misconception, my friend... who do you think kept in safety most of the historical records, ancient books (pagan and sacred) and documents on architecture, mathematics and science in the western world during medieval times? The Church has been a subject of such rabid attacks that no one outside of it knows fact from fiction anymore. The middle ages were truly a constant time of intellectual and technological growth, although at a very slow pace. It wasn't until the press was invented (by a Catholic, btw) that technology exploded because of the sudden surge in communications. Now you didn't have to sell your house to buy a book! And I mean any book, not just bibles. And yet, rabidly anti-catholic idiots who called themselves "enlightened" (like Voltaire) labeled the middle ages as "dark ages" (even though the original term had an been coined by Petrarch more than three centuries before and had an entirely different meaning) with the goal of raising their own intellectual status by smearing and distorting history.

What bothers me most is that even today the world is teeming with what I call "nominal catholics", that is, extremely ignorant catholics who call themselves such and yet live a life that is far from virtuous. They're such an embarrassment.

“There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.” - Fulton J. Sheen

I'm done here, this subject is absolutely fascinating to me, but I'm up to my neck with more important things to attend... I'll still be watching this thread, though. Good luck to all.

 

I was suffering from the belief that good sense might be infiltrating The Church.

Eventually, But what did it take? 350 years to admit the guy they placed under house arrest until he died was actually right?
He is probably very relieved.
Max.

 

Ignorance? ... yet another huge misconception, my friend.

The fact that the Catholic Church didn't let Galileo out of Hell until the 1970's is all the evidence I need that somebody isn't paying attention. You might use a different word than, "ignorance" and I'm eager to hear (read) it.

 

One of the things that I found abhorrent of the colonizing nations, was that the Jesuits usually followed close behind in an effort to convert the 'Heathens' often destroying cultures, customs and ways of life that had evolved over centuries.
Max.

 

You might use a different word than, "ignorance" and I'm eager to hear (read) it.

I don't think it was ignorance, on the contrary, they knew the truth, it was Fear.
Max.

 

The discussion of "the church" is not an easy one... it was definitely one of the largest drivers of knowledge and education as well as medicine and philanthropy.

http://christianthinktank.com/qburnbx.html

https://hcchristian.wordpress.com/2...unts-and-the-christian-church-the-conclusion/

 

.. it was definitely one of the largest drivers of knowledge and education as well as medicine and philanthropy.

Max.

 

One of the things that I found abhorrent of the colonizing nations, was that the Jesuits usually followed close behind in an effort to convert the 'Heathens' often destroying cultures, customs and ways of life that had evolved over centuries.
Max.

ANOTHER... misconception... *sigh* ...


I want to get out... but thet keep pulling me back in! - Michael Corleone

*****

"The Jesuit/Indian Civilization"

We come now to one of the most extraordinary omissions from the history of the New World. As you read about it you will wonder, as I do, how this extensive episode possibly could be blanked out of all the standard histories, even though well-documented accounts have been published.28 What is involved is a huge Indian civilization—complete with its own symphony orchestras—created under the guidance of the Jesuits and then utterly stamped out by Spanish and Portuguese armies. Welcome to the Jesuit Republic of Paraguay, founded in 1609. It covered an area twice the size of France and was located south of Brazil and west of the territory ceded to Portugal by the Treat of Tordesillas (1494). Here, a tiny group of Spanish Jesuits (probably never numbering more than two hundred) founded, protected, educated, and advised a remarkable civilization encompassing at least thirty “Reductions,”29 or communities, of Guarani Indians. Not only did the arts and industry flourish in the Jesuit Republic—cities had paved streets and impressive buildings—but a valid attempt was made at representative government. The Jesuits’ purpose in founding this republic, as explained by the Jesuit superior Antonio Ruiz de Montoya in 1609, was to Christianize and “civilize” the Indians so they could be free subjects of the Crown, equal to the Spaniards, and thus to “bring about peace between the Spaniards and the Indians, a task so difficult that, since the discovery of the West Indies more than a hundred years ago, it still has not been possible.”30 The Republic flourished, but rather than becoming the basis for equality and peace, its existence offended many colonial officials and planters and provided a tempting plum for expropriation. Nevertheless, the Jesuits managed to forestall and outmaneuver their opponents for well over a century. But then things began to go sour. The first step in the downfall of the Republic came in 1750 when the Portuguese and the Spanish signed a new treaty, redividing South America along natural boundaries. As a result, seven of the Reductions fell within Portuguese jurisdiction. Ordered to turn these settlements over to the civil authorities, the Jesuits resisted and appealed to the Portuguese and Spanish Crowns to have the Reductions spared. But the opposition was too strong and too unscrupulous, planting rumors and false evidence of Jesuit conspiracies against both Crowns. So in 1754, the Spanish sent troops against the seven Reductions from the west, while the Portuguese advanced from the east. But both forces of European troops were defeated by the Indians, who were quite well trained in Western military tactics and possessed muskets and cannons. Although the Jesuits had not participated in the battles, they were blamed as traitors and in response were banned from Portuguese and Spanish territories in 1758. Soon additional plots against the Jesuits succeeded in Spain, as all members of the order in Spain were arrested in 1767 and deported to the Papal States. In July of that year, colonial authorities were ready to move against the Jesuits in Latin America, and the roundup began in Buenos Aires and Cordoba. But it wasn’t until the next year that Spanish troops moved against the final twenty-three Reductions and seized the remaining Jesuits, whereupon even very sick and elderly fathers were tied to mules and transported over the mountains in bad weather, many to their deaths. Thus, the Jesuits were expelled from the Western Hemisphere. Soon their Republic lay in ruins, defeated and looted by civil authorities. Disheartened by their mistreatment and the loss of the Black Robed Fathers, the surviving Guarani drifted away.

It is depressing, but no surprise, that among the very few historians who bother to mention the Jesuit Republic, too many attack it as naked Catholic colonialism, condemn the “fanatical” Jesuits for imposing religion and civilization on the “gentle” Indians, and denounce Jesuit efforts to sustain a republic as cruel paternalism and “ruthless exploitation.”31 But even if one were to accept the most extreme version of these claims, one is still faced with sincere and effective efforts by the Jesuits to protect the Indians against planters and colonial authorities who wished to reduce them to servitude or to eradicate them entirely. To have constructed an advanced Indian civilization in this historical context was an extraordinary feat. Moreover, the antagonistic historians at least have reported this remarkable event, while most other historians have utterly ignored it. In the section on “Paraguay, History of,” the Encyclopaedia Britannica (15th ed.) offers this sentence: “During most of the colonial era, Paraguay was known chiefly for a huge Jesuit mission group of 30 reducciones.” We are not even told what “reduccionies” are, and nothing more is said anywhere else in the many volumes. As for the major works on New World slavery, all of which have bitter (and often anti-Catholic) things to say about the enslavement and abuse of the Indians in Latin America, not a word!

From: Bearing False Witness, Debunking Centuries of Anti-Catholic History.

The author of said book is a protestant! ... by the way...

 

I don't think it was ignorance, on the contrary, they knew the truth, it was Fear.
Max.

That leaves a lot of room for me to doubt.
Fear that people would respect the Church for learning from it's mistakes?
Fear that reversing their dogma would confuse the peasants?
Fear that Galileo's soul would corporealize and slap the face of The Pope?
Throw me a bone. What is it about getting real and being honest that the Catholic Church fears?
Or would that require a book sized answer?

 

d

 

d

That is the best one symbol answer I have ever seen!
Now, let's try to get back on topic.

 

cmartinez,

stay strong... something similar happened on the west coast. Russia was first to explore and interact with native communities helping them reinforce and fortify their settlements starting in Alaska and down to Hawaii. The relationships were mutually benefitial based on trade. Unfortunately Russia was in no shape to try and keep the lands at the time...

 

Max.

I had to cringe past the abortion section. Nothing is greater than nuns and priests preaching against birth control and abortion...

Common people need their heros, fake or real ones. Ghandi, Mother Theresa, whoever sells best.

But seriously, church is responsible for a lot - astronomy, philosophy, biology. Mendel was a monk and he gave us beginning of genetics... But this was then. I believe know it is mostly politics and lobbying. I dont expect them to cure cancer ahead of thw pharma companies

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2011/05/06/what-the-church-has-given-the-world/

 

I had to cringe past the abortion section. Nothing is greater than nuns and priests preaching against birth control and abortion...

Common people need their heros, fake or real ones. Ghandi, Mother Theresa, whoever sells best.

But seriously, church is responsible for a lot - astronomy, philosophy, biology. Mendel was a monk and he gave us beginning of genetics... But this was then. I believe know it is mostly politics and lobbying. I dont expect them to cure cancer ahead of thw pharma companies

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2011/05/06/what-the-church-has-given-the-world/

It also has the largest meteorite collection in the world. And employs many priests and nuns in scientific research, from cancer, all the way to astrophysics.

 

The Catholic Church as been on board with the acceptance of the possibility of extraterrestrial life since the 16th century, btw.

And one day, maybe, Elias in his flaming chariot, could acquire a new meaning.

 

The so many discoveries and advances in different sciences made by catholic people is not necessarily a credit due to the Church but just to them. Doing otherwise is misleading.

BTW, the blunder of condemning Galileo could have been happily avoided by minding their own business. What actual qualifications all who judged him, had? Peer review you mean?

 

It also has the largest meteorite collection in the world. And employs many priests and nuns in scientific research, from cancer, all the way to astrophysics.

Begs the question, what are they looking for?

kv