Background - I am a retired tech from the Telecom industry, been away from the industry for going on 15 years, recently been handed a problem with an automated door system, the techs that were working on it have given up... the building manager knew I had a background in things electronic and electrical so here I am....sigh

The system is as follows, ther is 3 parts,

A magnetic reader reads the info from a card at the garage door out front to let cars in, it sends that info to the controller via RF.

The RF is then converted to a 12VDC and hard wired to a Chint 3210 type contactor (https://www.expertelectrical.co.uk/motor-control-gear/chint-nc1-contactors) . The contactor operates on 110 VAC.

There is a button for the open contactor to open the garage door from the parking below, and another 2 buttons at the front desk for the portero to open and close the door, and a 3rd button for an emergency cut off. Once the chain slide has reached either full open or full close micro switches cut the circuit and the travel stops.

The problem was that when the 12 VDC was tied into the 3210 contactors the signal from the magnetic strip feeding the TX unit kept sending the open signal to the open contactor, cycling open-stop,open-stop until the door opener would break the chain.

I have isolated the button controls to operate independently, now I need a bit of help to properly tie the 12 VDC into the Chint contactor to operate in a similar fashion as the button controls. The VDC to VAC interface needs only acutate long enough to activate the 3210 Magnetic contactor.
I am hoping I can find my solution in this forum but if not it looks to be a wonderful source of future information for me.

Please be kind been away from these type of situations for a long while now.

Thanks
LW

 

Welcome to AAC.

Based on your description - and we can only see this from the picture you paint (from your eyes) - it sounds like the transmitter is malfunctioning. Without putting hands on it to troubleshoot it I could not begin to tell for sure what the problem is. However, the best way to determine the problem is to determine what is functioning correctly.

So, does the door operate properly when not receiving signal from the transmitter? If so - then the problem is in the transmitter itself. If the problem is in the contactor then WITH GREAT CARE AND CONCERN FOR PERSONAL SAFETY - by pass the contactor and manually make and break contact. If the door functions properly with the contactor bypassed then the contactor may be suspect. IF the door still malfunctions with everything bypassed and the door being manually operated then it would seem the opener may itself be the source of the problem.

Divide and concur.

 

Welcome to AAC.

Based on your description - and we can only see this from the picture you paint (from your eyes) - it sounds like the transmitter is malfunctioning. Without putting hands on it to troubleshoot it I could not begin to tell for sure what the problem is. However, the best way to determine the problem is to determine what is functioning correctly.

So, does the door operate properly when not receiving signal from the transmitter? If so - then the problem is in the transmitter itself. If the problem is in the contactor then WITH GREAT CARE AND CONCERN FOR PERSONAL SAFETY - by pass the contactor and manually make and break contact. If the door functions properly with the contactor bypassed then the contactor may be suspect. IF the door still malfunctions with everything bypassed and the door being manually operated then it would seem the opener may itself be the source of the problem.

Divide and concur.

Thanks for the reply Tony

I will try to give you more meat for your plate. The previous tech also thought it was a problem with the Transmitter, they changed it out at least a couple of times, the problem still existed.

The techs changed all sorts of wiring and again I think they just messed things up further. The door originally was a simple Push the button the door opened, push the button the door closed, but mangement thought we need more automation so they now want the door to open automatically when a car arrives, then hopefully a timer to issue a control to close the door, and someplace in there and optical eye to stop operation if a person or object cuts the beam. These last two items they never got to.

I re wired the contactors to what the original wiring was to get back to some base point. The door man can now operate the door to open and close as was before. I then wired the button at the lower garage level to open the door from below. All this operates perfect, or the way it should.

The Transmitter is sending the signal to the controller and the voltage is then derived from that signal, the output is 12VDC at the cable end found at the contactors box at the door control.

I was called the other day as the door was going nuts. A car was at the entrance and the signal was being sent, the door was already full open and yet the contactor for open was being picked up then the micro switch would drop it out, picked up again then dropped out. I at first believed that this was a result of the micro switch but I was wrong. It was something in the way they had originally wired the connection that as such the micro switch was out of the control circuit. I found a small and what looks like an integrated circuit box with what looked like 6 leads coming out that they had in the connection from the RF Converter box that was bypassing the micro switch cut out. I assume it was to serve the same function as the micro switch cut out at the end of travel.

Well with the motor banging the hell out of the chain and everything else I cut this small box like thing out and it stopped that performance. Thats when I said enough and separated each way to open the door and here I sit

The manual buttons perform as I need them. They start and stop everything as I intended, holding the buttons after the micro cut out switch is in the Norm Open positon does not cause the motor to start so I am pleased with this.

I have measured 12VDC coming to the point of where I need to connect into the contactors but I am not current enough to know what I need to use to interface this 12 VDC to the contactors which require 120 VAC.

I do hope I am drawing a better picture. I have wandered into a mess and I am slowly picking my way through, and I found this site thinking it may hold good potential for a solution.

I am certain that the TX'r is doing what it should, the RF to voltage converter is doing its job but I need insight how to make it go from 12vdc to the 120 VAC the contactor needs.

If you need more I can try to paint a better picture for you but I appreciate that you got back to me.

LW

 

Best way for us to understand the circuit is to provide a diagram. If you can do a schematic that would be most helpful. But if noy - at least some kind of flow chart showing how things are connected.

As for the 12 volt to 120 volt needed to operate the contactor - a relay would do the job. If the door was at one time working as desired then you have to figure out what has changed. I had an old Chamberlain that would open on its own. Changed the code several times but the door would still trigger. Never figured out why so I removed it and put a Genie in instead.

Used to have an issue with the wife forgetting to close the garage door when she left for work. Built and installed the attached file. It checks to see if the door is open at certain times (AM and PM). If the door is open at a specific time the door will be automatically closed. This helps in that I've gone to bed leaving the door open myself. The diagram helps you understand what I did and how the system works. If you can give us a diagram of your project then the sharp people here are quite likely to spot something that either IS or HAS THE POTENTIAL to interfere with desired operation - and likely propose a solution as well.

 

again thanks for the reply

You made mention of a realy to take the 12 to the needd 120, are there any specifics for the relay or can I just go to the loocal electronics supply and tell what I need to do and they will just know what to give me?

Thanks for your patience, and I do like you design fo r the door closing, if I get time I will map out what the door set up is if I have further problems..

I am thinking you may be the resource I need to set up the close timer, but I will need to get a diagram to help you.

Thx
LW

 

"small box-like thing" - Photos?

Functional test #1 - does the RF receiver make an output when it is not supposed to? Ever? If no, that rules out both the TX and RX.

ak

 

"small box-like thing" - Photos?

Functional test #1 - does the RF receiver make an output when it is not supposed to? Ever? If no, that rules out both the TX and RX.

ak

The Rx'r does not put out anything until the magcard trips the rcvr unit, then the controller puts out a voltage.

I will try to get a phot of the little black box thing, I believe it to be a relay or something of the like, can only surmise that it is used to pick the voltage to trip the Magnetic contactor

Will get to work on that

 

My guess is that arcing at the contactor or the motor or the limit switches is generating interference which is being picked up by the Rx and causing it to re-trigger the opening action.
Do you ever experience unwanted re-triggering of the closing action?
Is it a brushed/slip-ring type motor?
Are the contactor's contacts in good condition?
Are any suppressor components involved?

 

My guess is that arcing at the contactor or the motor or the limit switches is generating interference which is being picked up by the Rx and causing it to re-trigger the opening action.
Do you ever experience unwanted re-triggering of the closing action?
Is it a brushed/slip-ring type motor?
Are the contactor's contacts in good condition?
Are any suppressor components involved?

OK thanks for the replys all who have thus far....

first to answer the questions
No the problem only occurred when the door was fully opened
Not sure about the type of motor
Contactors are like new, I believe they only about 3 years old.... so for what that is worth
No suppressor components

NOW my investigation.... the little black box thingy, I took it to the sunshine and a big magnifying glass and although I had a tough time to read it as my eyes aint what they used to be I did decipher these numbers
it is HUIKE Component, HKV6 DC12V - SG that lead me to this https://www.ebay.com/itm/HKV6-DC12V-SG-Power-Relay-20A-12VDC-5-Pins-x-10pcs-/162610544148

Now I noticed that where there should be 5 leads there are only 4 on this one, and then looking at the terminal strip and wiring for the contactors, there is a lead hanging there attached to nothing....

So if I am following this correctly this device is what is being used to up the 12VDC to usable 120 VAC to engage the contactor. Am I on the right track?
Sorry I do not have a way to photo any of this at the moment....

Thx in advance

 

As already raised, Is there no model No and schematic of the system? I assume there was one originally.
If small control relays are picking up a contactor coil, it pays to to wire a R/C snubber across the contactor coil.
Max.

 

The VDC to VAC interface needs only acutate long enough to activate the 3210 Magnetic contactor.

And how long is that? Is this just a momentary action, with the auxiliary contact on the actuator being used to provide some latching action?

 

And how long is that? Is this just a momentary action, with the auxiliary contact on the actuator being used to provide some latching action?

Thanks again for the input

Max the Schematic, all I had to go by was a drawing very rudimentary left by the tech that installed the contactors. The contactors were replaced about 4 years ago, the system is close to 50 years old and has been pieced together, and from the looks of it every tech that has his hands on it did the minimum to get it working and then crammed everything back in the box. Imagine a wrecked birds nest and that would approximation of this little mess.

I took it on, maybe sorry I did but I will see it through.

Alec, Yes there are Aux contacts that hold the mag switch until the micro switch cuts the supply and drops the contact. To activate all that is required is a few milliseconds of 120VAC.

The more I look at what may have transpired is this.... the tech who installed it used the 12v to 120Vac relay and it worked until the one lead broke off. That caused the problems with the eratic motor start and stop, ( my theory)and when the cover was removed from the box all the cables fell out and the broken lead was lost in the mess and I did not find it until today. The whole thing needs to be re wired but I am not sure I want to get in that deep...sigh, just the way things get done here the way it is is considered quite normal.

Looking at this relay I am left thinking there has to be something better than this... this is not what I would consider robust and using this again I believe will result in another failure.

Any feedback on my thoughts?
Great forum, causing this old brain to think in a way it hasn't in a long while.... just glad I found this place.

 

Max the Schematic, all I had to go by was a drawing very rudimentary left by the tech that installed the contactors. The contactors were replaced about 4 years ago, the system is close to 50 years old and has been pieced together, and from the looks of it every tech that has his hands on it did the minimum to get it working and then crammed everything back in the box. Imagine a wrecked birds nest and that would approximation of this little mess.

The whole thing needs to be re wired but I am not sure I want to get in that deep...sigh, just the way things get done here the way it is is considered quite normal.

Any feedback on my thoughts?

Unfortunately, as I see it, it is going to be very hard to offer constructive advice at this stage, at least on the present system, which appears to be have been 'modified' over the years.
It definitely sounds like a time to step back and re-engineer/develop a new system.
At least that is what I would be inclined to do faced with the same dilemma.
But for now, it might be worth a stab a reverse engineering it as it is, and then take it from there.
Max..

 

Few years ago on a different forum a young girl asked advice on what to do for Mothers Day. I told her of a theatre not far from my house that I go to all the time. Told her to look in her area for something similar. Turns out the young girl lived just 6 miles away from me. We met on a world wide forum only to discover we were practically neighbors.

You don't have to if you don't want to, but I've listed what state I live in. And many here are US citizens and many more are in other countries. The notion that we could be neighbors is somewhat far fetched, but I have to wonder just how close some of my fellow AACer's are. Would you care to share your geographical location? Not an address, just a local area. I'm in the Salt Lake Utah area (about 20 miles from SL City).

 

Well the situation is solved!!!

After taking in all the advice and commentary from this forum, making me think about the situation, Many Thanks to Tony, Max, Alec, Analog, pushing this around a bit if only in my head I went and asked and the Industrial electronic supply and they had what was required. Yes it was the Relay.... the techs who installed the existing relay cheaped out, the thing broke and that was causing 90% of the trouble. Found out that Chint, makers for the contactors, actually makes the proper relay for just this situation, about 10X the cost of what the little cheap one cost but it worked like a hand in a glove.....

Tony I wish I was a bit closer but I am living in Medellin Colombia, and little things become very difficult at times in regards to how things are done. In this situation the contractor tried to save with low cost installers and in the end it cost more.... life is what it is somettimes...

Again thanks to all

LW