very true... but then again, we're also quick learners. Even those of us who were born with no social skills eventually have to learn how to sell our technical skills...

I have experience with engineers succeeding in sales, but it was B2B selling to other engineers. This can be very effective especially when your sales team includes regular sales people to handle any non-engineers in the process such as the purchasing director. But when the product is technical and the customer is an engineer....

I think our TS has little chance selling his products at retail but perhaps another engineer would see something of value in his efforts. Or not.

 

When my Dad was a salesman he did very well with his own company. Hydraulic systems. Mostly because he was selling to the engineers at the companies that he was familiar with. The engineer would work up the chain and with dad's help get to the decision maker and make the deal. Later if there were issues dad and the engineers would work it out. I'm not sure this works anymore. As he recently told me the current crop of "clerical engineers" don't know what they are doing and don't have enough influence with management to get a deal done anyway.

But more related to IOT. I don't see any products there that I care about. Sure I can turn off my lights from my phone but so what? And then my new light bulb needs to be compatible with the system? Those are your two main issues, if you can answer those maybe you can succeed. Add to that security which is why Nest will never be allowed in my house. Google makes it's money off selling people's personal infomation and I think they will get some off this post. But I refuse to buy something from them to help them spy on me. Thanks.

 

But more related to IOT. I don't see any products there that I care about.

I mostly agree.

But I already saved a number of U-turns on those days when I couldn't remember if I closed the garage door or not.

 

Am I the only one that sees the hilarious irony in the title of this thread?

Yeah, Sorry, I typed it too fast (engineer)

Can I edit it?!

From personal experience: engineers make for lousy salesmen.

The trick is to convince a potential customer that he wants to spend his hard earned cash on your product instead of something else he desires. This is an emotional -- and many times irrational -- decision making process. Engineers tend not to think, or communicate, this way.

Actually, a while ago, a businessman man told me to work on IOT stuff and he will support me. The hardest part of selling something is when you want to sell a product for the first time. when a customer asks you that how many of this product you have sold so far, you can't tell them nothing...

After I made my product, The businessman told me that he will support me, but after I sell a high number of this product, while before this product he expected I make a tracking device for him and then he would pay to me after he finds his customers...

In where I live, almost all of the salesmen and businessmen are like this!

 

Actually, a while ago, a businessman man told me to work on IOT stuff and he will support me. The hardest part of selling something is when you want to sell a product for the first time. when a customer asks you that how many of this product you have sold so far, you can't tell them nothing...

After I made my product, The businessman told me that he will support me, but after I sell a high number of this product, while before this product he expected I make a tracking device for him and then he would pay to me after he finds his customers...

In where I live, almost all of the salesmen and businessmen are like this!

The trick is to have the product already sold, before you've even designed it or invested your resources in it.

 

No this happens to pure technology types all the time. They act like inventors and get consistently screwed out of everything all the time. They need to get their heads out of their keisters and realize that we live in a real world and ideas are worth less than a dime a bale in ten bale lots.* When engineers start acting like entrepreneurs and businessmen their fortunes will change.

*Lancaster, Don,The Case Against Patents

What you need to do now is use what you have as a stepping stone to the next product/project. This time find a customer and understand his requirements BEFORE you draw the schematic or write a line of code. While you are at it, at least get yourself an LLC.

Yes, but anytime i tried to work for entrepreneurs, businessmen or even a customer who wants a special device, they did not keep their promises anyway, once a businessman (who was my friend too) asked me to make an UV light for industrial printers. I didn't sign any contract with him, because i trusted him and he was my friend, but after I made his UV light, he even wasn't interested on testing the light, and he told me he will find a customer for the product and then he will pay for that UV light.

I'm sure it's pretty easy for him to finding customer, at the first he decided to make a product line for UV lights, but noe he prefers to buy UV lights from companies around the world and sell it to his customers than producing it. While I have made it for him...

They don't keep their promises, They don't...

Some of your market research will ask _why_ they don't like your product. Of course, one reason they don't like it is that they have not heard about it. That is the marketing part.

Both of these problems must be dealt with for a successful product.

They ask what's the benefit of your product, then I explain and then they would tell me that they don't need something like it in their life, but after a while, you will see they have bought a product like it from someone else...

You got two things wrong there.

Product with lower quality and lower price gets more sales, but not necessarily more profit.
Product with lower quality and higher price doesn't sell.

Marketing is an art, not a science.
Marketing is sometimes intuition and gut feeling. Many times marketing does the exact a opposite of what one would expect.

Yes, you are right.

Here is the U.S. Small Business Administration. You can glean ideas from their information on starting, marketing, and running a business.

Don Lancaster's article "A case against patents."

Thank you

Think about this for a minute and you will likely discover a big part of your problem.

Someone convinces you that "IOT has a good market" and so you apparently concluded that ANYTHING that could be tagged as being "IOT" was somehow guaranteed to be an instant hit.

So think back to what made you think that YOUR particular IOT module should matter to anyone. Did you make any effort to find out what people wanted or whether they would want what you were thinking of doing? Or did you just tuck yourself away and bury your head for two years assuming that whatever you built would have a market?

You may or may not be able to salvage anything from this project, but you should definitely use it as a learning experience to keep from making the same mistake again (and again, and again).

I have a lot of experience like this, even when a customer directly asks me to make something and pays money for the start of the project...

The interesting part is even they don't care to the money they have paid at the start..., they lose their money and I lose my time and talent...

When my Dad was a salesman he did very well with his own company. Hydraulic systems. Mostly because he was selling to the engineers at the companies that he was familiar with. The engineer would work up the chain and with dad's help get to the decision maker and make the deal. Later if there were issues dad and the engineers would work it out. I'm not sure this works anymore. As he recently told me the current crop of "clerical engineers" don't know what they are doing and don't have enough influence with management to get a deal done anyway.

But more related to IOT. I don't see any products there that I care about. Sure I can turn off my lights from my phone but so what? And then my new light bulb needs to be compatible with the system? Those are your two main issues, if you can answer those maybe you can succeed. Add to that security which is why Nest will never be allowed in my house. Google makes it's money off selling people's personal infomation and I think they will get some off this post. But I refuse to buy something from them to help them spy on me. Thanks.

This module has port forwarding ability for those who don't like to put their data in my server, that mean even I have thought to customers demands before stating this project ...

The trick is to have the product already sold, before you've even designed it or invested your resources in it.

So probably i will never sell any product, because when i can't sell a real product, how can I sell a product before making...

 

I have experience with engineers succeeding in sales, but it was B2B selling to other engineers. This can be very effective especially when your sales team includes regular sales people to handle any non-engineers in the process such as the purchasing director. But when the product is technical and the customer is an engineer....

I think our TS has little chance selling his products at retail but perhaps another engineer would see something of value in his efforts. Or not.

I forgot to mention that, What I made is an IOT module (not exactly iot, something like a microcontroller which is programmable from internet), So only just other engineers are customers of this module, but i tried to extend my business so I made a device for smart house which is using this module.

 

That businessman was an investor. In the U.S. there is a show called Shark Tank where investors hear about products and sometimes invest in them. Just appearing on that type show had a burst of sales for that inventor. Here is the youtube clips of the Shark Tank show.

Another show was called the West Texas Investor Club which morphed into Rooster and Butch, the two investors.

All those investors will risk their money to help a prepared business person with a product they think will sell. The investor wants to know the valuation of your business and the sales of the product. Some people enter those shows without a clue of their business valuation and have little sales. That type does not attract investors.

Although the shows are U.S. based, I'm sure investors have common criteria for investing their money into someone and someone's business.

@cmartinez said engineers learn fast. They are also keen observers and learners. Use those youtube videos to glean information. All those business owners went to the investors must sell their idea or product to get help. Typically the investor want's a bit of equity ... and it can range up to or more than 50%.

 

Personally I see holes everywhere in your approach, I have a little experience in this, GE held patents on a product I wanted to sell, they didn't hold patents on the exact product purpose that I wanted to build however they held patents on sensing devices, which is what I created while mimicking theirs, their purposes were different, but in a court of law my dollar to defend a patent or even file for one was not worth pursuing.

Example: They had a sensing device which used IR to detect frost inside a refrigerator, mine was for detecting lint in your coils of the Refrigerator, it was purposed to allow potential customers to know it's time to clean, the unit had a capability of powering a 15 amp motor or what ever annoying buzzer or light etc.

Ok, great idea or bust.

Spoiler

Bust

Big *&^% deal. So, I went to see where I could market this as one off's just to get the $500 I put down on 50 prototypes (which was cheap BTW), this device was a dual device also detected water leakage now you have something right? you would think so, according to the amount of Dryers that flame up because of lint accumulation plus one unit could cover water leakage to the washer and turn off the supply, Great right? Wrong, home owner insurance companies don't give 2 shits about your life or property, payouts on potential claims is all their concerned with and how much it will cost them, so no market. I had those great ideas for all your appliances in your home.

Now at my work at a University, I build smart rooms and use smart technologies to do it. The University paid me to learn to design and program "Crestron Units" I was flown at the Uni's dime to learn to design and program proprietary equipment, I am an A+ partner with the Crestron company, it's all out of the box simple easy. The Crestron family of products this business has been about this market for years, being at the top of the list now accumulating other competitors, companies such as AMX and Cisco jumping into the market.

Tuff nut to crack, either decide you haven't done your homework to avoid the hard earned hard knocks like I did or receive the information given from experienced engineers which is worth it's weight in Gold from losses later on in time energy or even money.

In closing I had interested people who gave me lip service at first, Oh, great idea, but when I got the warning signs I didn't see them, I was bull headed and stubborn I could't see why someone else couldn't see this great thing as a great "add on device" with huge benefits, but in the end I spent far to much time walking and talking doing the hard sell, when I should have done all the fault finding in the beginning. BTW, I paid an Electrical Engineer to build the idea in my head, plus he held half cut of every unit sold. My job was to fund and build the prototypes to sell, plus acquire customer acquisitions.

Sorry man, but thats just how the cookie can crumble.

Regards,
kv

 

So probably i will never sell any product, because when i can't sell a real product, how can I sell a product before making...

That's exactly what those crowdfunding sites do, is sell an idea. You convince people of the benefits of your approach and get buy-in before you actually complete the work and make the product.

 

That's exactly what those crowdfunding sites do, is sell an idea. You convince people of the benefits of your approach and get buy-in before you actually complete the work and make the product.

I wish I would have had that in the beginning of my experience, mine was a door to door approach, getting a customers opinion and money is a good way to go, but once it's in the atmosphere without a patent your just gum on the bottom of their shoe.

kv

 

Yes, but anytime i tried to work for entrepreneurs, businessmen or even a customer who wants a special device, they did not keep their promises anyway...

You need to find someone who will be honest with you and tell you why they did not follow through. That's the only way for you to learn, change, and avoid repeating the past.

When business people walk away from something, you can be sure of one thing, that they did not see a profit opportunity. Something about your offering turned them off and the fact that they didn't tell you what it was suggests to me that it may have been personal. They didn't want to do business with you and didn't want to hurt your feelings by telling you why. If their reluctance was purely technical, they probably would have told you. Too big, too expensive, not enough power, whatever. There'd be no reason to hold their tongues on those complaints.

I can only speculate, and I could be way off, but that's the way your story sounds to me.

I also recommend that business should still be treated as business even if it's between friends. That means being clear upfront about expectations, pay arrangements, details, contingency plans when things fail, and so on. This may be even more important with business between friends so that business problems don't endanger the relationship. Stay professional.

 

I had interested people who gave me lip service at first, Oh, great idea, but when I got the warning signs I didn't see them, I was bull headed and stubborn I could't see why someone else couldn't see this great thing as a great "add on device" with huge benefits, but in the end I spent far to much time walking and talking doing the hard sell, when I should have done all the fault finding in the beginning.

That's another thing about us, engineers... we're problem-solvers at heart. And we just love a challenge. Sometimes so much that we become blind to the warning signs that are in plain sight and charge like bulls against anything standing in our way.... we only want to prove to ourselves (and, even worse, sometimes to others) that we can make things work the way we say they can.

And then we end up wasting our time and resources on a fool's errand. It is only when we listen to the advice from people similar to us and that we respect and that are also more seasoned and experienced than us that we cool down a bit and try to see things in a more objective way... that's why I now always consult others before venturing into a new business on my own, or as an associate... I've been burned too many times and I'm now considerably more cautious than I was when I got started...

Then again, I also envy the noobie's naïve and crystal pure enthusiasm when I watch them start working on a new project... they don't know what awaits them. And maybe that's to their advantage... one has to be very careful not to quench their energy with pessimistic advice when they seek it from you.

 

Yeah, Sorry, I typed it too fast (engineer)

Can I edit it?!

Yes you can. There's an edit thread title button somewhere in your screen. Although you're new, and I'm not sure if your editing privileges are limited for you to correct the thread title. But a moderator or administrator such as @bertus can do that for you.

 

Hello,

Members with a postcount of more then 10 can use the threadtool to edit the title.
As you only have been posting in the off-topic, your postcount will not increase.
When you tell me how you want to change the title, I can do it for you.

Bertus

 

Yes you can. There's an edit thread title button somewhere in your screen. Although you're new, and I'm not sure if your editing privileges are limited for you to correct the thread title. But a moderator or administrator such as @bertus can do that for you.

But please don't! I think it's quaint and amusing that a thread about communication problems between engineers and ... other people, starts with a mis-spelling of engineer.

 

But please don't! I think it's quaint and amusing that a thread about communication problems between engineers and ... other people, starts with a mis-spelling of engineer.

... I can assure you, I don't want to be a wet blanket here... but if it had been my thread... it would've been very embarrassing for me... then again, it's kind of funny, as you've just said.

 

Hello,

Here are three books on IoT that might interest you:
https://archive.org/details/IoT5days
https://archive.org/details/Internet_of_Things
https://archive.org/details/springer_10.1007-978-3-642-40403-0

Bertus

 

That businessman was an investor. In the U.S. there is a show called Shark Tank where investors hear about products and sometimes invest in them. Just appearing on that type show had a burst of sales for that inventor. Here is the youtube clips of the Shark Tank show.

I don't live in U.S. but there are some shows like this in where I live, sounds like engineers in U.S. have the same problem. I think investor should say what they need to invest, they should have some employees for finding what people need and how many customers have and etc. then when they see our invent, device or etc. they would understand that we have the ability of making the product that they want to invest on it.

Personally I see holes everywhere in your approach, I have a little experience in this, GE held patents on a product I wanted to sell, they didn't hold patents on the exact product purpose that I wanted to build however they held patents on sensing devices, which is what I created while mimicking theirs, their purposes were different, but in a court of law my dollar to defend a patent or even file for one was not worth pursuing.

I had the same problem for a "patentee". In where I live, if you pay to them for giving patentee, you can even give a patentee for a simple "stove pipe".

I wish I would have had that in the beginning of my experience, mine was a door to door approach, getting a customers opinion and money is a good way to go, but once it's in the atmosphere without a patent your just gum on the bottom of their shoe.

Yes exactly, I personally don't like to invest on something which still is only "some words".

You need to find someone who will be honest with you and tell you why they did not follow through. That's the only way for you to learn, change, and avoid repeating the past.

I'm not sure how much of you think like me, but I think one of the property of the businessmen and investors is they are not honest with you, and I guess it is the reason that they are mostly reach people.

UV light project was my friend's project, not mine, I only worked for him as an inventor for his project, It's not my fault that he couldn't find his customers, but he didn't pay anything and just says he has some personal problems, he want to go to a trip and sentences like that. While he is making more money day by day...

That's another thing about us, engineers... we're problem-solvers at heart. And we just love a challenge. Sometimes so much that we become blind to the warning signs that are in plain sight and charge like bulls against anything standing in our way.... we only want to prove to ourselves (and, even worse, sometimes to others) that we can make things work the way we say they can.

I'm agree with you...

How ever i decided to prepare a datasheet for my product and will do more retry. It is all i can do at the moment.

But please don't! I think it's quaint and amusing that a thread about communication problems between engineers and ... other people, starts with a mis-spelling of engineer.

C'mon man, I'm so embarrassed lol

... I can assure you, I don't want to be a wet blanket here... but if it had been my thread... it would've been very embarrassing for me... then again, it's kind of funny, as you've just said.

Well, I won't edit it, as you wish

Hello,

Here are three books on IoT that might interest you:
https://archive.org/details/IoT5days
https://archive.org/details/Internet_of_Things
https://archive.org/details/springer_10.1007-978-3-642-40403-0

Thank you!

 

hi MA,
I would advise you to think about IoT devices that would fill a 'need' , not to create a IoT device and try to create a market 'need'.

You are tackling the problem back to front.

E