I wish I was born in a jungle somewhere in a rain forest in South America, to parents in an unknown tribe of loincloth wearing tarzans who know nothing of people and machines outside their territorial radius.

Is that true? Some days, yes. Other days, no. The point is, I envy blissful ignorance. I give my baby kid a small candy and she is overjoyed, like there is no more awesome thing in the world. Then I give my older kid a bigger candy, maybe a whole snickers bar, and the baby suddenly finds the little candy insufficient. She drops it, and begs for the candy bar. She would have been happy for the rest of her life with small candies if she never knew that snickers bars existed. But I waved something better in her face, and ruined that. I sent her into a downward spiral of always seeking out newer and better things. Never being happy with what she has, always wanting more. And that is the train that we are all on in this society, myself included.

I could have been perfectly happy with no air conditioning, had I never felt it.
I could have been perfectly happy dying at my appointed time and place, with no modern medicine to unnaturally prolong my journey, had I never known of its existence.
I could have been perfectly happy fathering a dozen or more children, had I never heard of birth control.

And there are people in this world that ARE perfectly happy living what you would consider dismal conditions, because they know nothing else. Left alone, they would continue being just that happy. But you insist on going and waving snickers bars in their faces. Why?

I've already had the snickers bar in my face, followed by the bowl of ice cream, and the chocolate cake and everything there is. I'll never be happy without it. I'll never be content to stop learning about the expansive and wonderful world outside my territorial radius. Slowing down and taking time to "live a little" feels like wasted time. I cannot feel comfortable spending time in leisure. Here I am on a forum typing a long diatribe on a serious topic in order to give myself the satisfactory illusion of "time well spent." Time, such a precious commodity in our society.

Sure would be nice to wear a loincloth and not give a damn about time. Or circuits.

Oh well, here I am.

 

I think it is part of being human to want to push boundaries and learn more.

I have a great desire to study electronics, not because it will get me a job or earn me money, but because I love it. I might even say obsessed. I constantly try to push the boundaries of my knowledge, so that one day I might push the boundaries of human knowledge. At least in some small way.

Perhaps it is just the snickers argument, but I would say the drive to go one better is very human. Even if you lived in your amazon tribe, you still might have the drive to discover a bigger animal to eat.

Wether the emotions aroused by the knowledge of better things and the drive to find better things are linked I don't know.

I think it interesting that we always believe that there is a better way than the we we live in the present. Wether it is with more or less tech.

 

hmm. I think it's a reality that many in the developing world want what we have and that's why there is so much one way immigration between west and east.

I don't think it's tenable to claim that we are actually doing them a favour by keeping them underdeveloped whilst we live in luxury and try our best to prevent them getting through with tougher and tougher immigration laws, hostile media etc.

I'm surprised so few engineers here seem to see any value of development in the third world. That actually has come to quite a shock to me. I thought people would be more keen to find solutions and would see the benefit in development to any nation

 

I don't think it's tenable to claim that we are actually doing them a favour by keeping them underdeveloped whilst we live in luxury and try our best to prevent them getting through with tougher and tougher immigration laws, hostile media etc.

Tougher immigration laws are a country's sovereign right and has nothing to do with whether or not another country is able to come out of third world conditions. Strict immigration laws help a country maintain its ability to serve its purpose.

Where does a first-world country keep a third-world country underdeveloped?

I'm surprised so few engineers here seem to see any value of development in the third world. That actually has come to quite a shock to me. I thought people would be more keen to find solutions and would see the benefit in development to any nation

I think that most people, while it would be nice if everyone was on an equal playing field, are disillusioned to the ability to bring that about. To do this, you'd have to get everyone to agree on what is best, and when they don't, you'd have to topple regimes, force your view of the world on other people, and lead them to believe they are better off because of it. Like most engineering problems, politics screws everything up...

 

I think it interesting that we always believe that there is a better way than the we we live in the present. Wether it is with more or less tech.

Well the grass is always greener on the other side. fact. ...right?

hmm. I think it's a reality that many in the developing world want what we have and that's why there is so much one way immigration between west and east.

I don't think it's tenable to claim that we are actually doing them a favour by keeping them underdeveloped whilst we live in luxury...

Do we live in luxury? Is what we have better that what they have? Would we be doing them a favor by forcing our ways, our ideas, and our technology on them?
I agree that we think that our ways are better.
I agree that they (some) think that our ways are better.
But the World Happiness Index does give some good insight.
I happen to know quite a few people from less developed countries (including my wife). Yes, they (some) look to America as the "promised land" but when they get here, they are no more happy than they were. Why is that?

This is the land of the hamster on a wheel. Get off the wheel, you die. Dog eat dog. Not a pleasant way to live one's life, given the alternatives. Do we really need to work 40, 50, 60, hours per week or more? Do the benefits justify the sacrifices? I'm not sure. Again, I'd take blissful ignorance if that were an option. No knowledge of the benefits, hence I wouldn't miss them. And no need to run on a hamster wheel, a slave to my own "needs."

 

I think it's a reality that many in the developing world want what we have and that's why there is so much one way immigration between west and east.

The reality is that the first world wants what the developing world has - cheap labour and resources. Once those living in the developing world realize that they are being ripped-off, they try to get in it too. Maybe you know the saying, if you can't kill'em, join em?

Development is a natural process, and for some, development does not mean joining the ranks of EE or electronic gadget consumers, for some it means spiritual development, sitting on a river bank or an ocean shore watching the water...

 

I don't see us making any further progress in this discussion.

Development is in the eyes of the beholder. Who are we to say that our way of life is superior?
Why must we impose our way of life on to others?

I say the best thing you can do for another country is to give them independence to run their own affairs. If you feel compelled to provide aid then it must be unconditional with no strings attached.

As they say, charity begins at home. If you want to change the world, start with yourself and your own surroundings.

 

I think western society has been brainwashed into believing that its way of life is superior. Soviets were brainwashed to believe that capitalist society is rotten at the core as they only value money.

Strantor, I hear you, I always wanted to live with Incas (maybe I did, who knows), but I hear they were fairly developed

Before developing others, one must take his/her own blindfolds off first.

 

I'd like to take a moment to humor everybody with a little story and a few pictures from my life, that sort of fit in with my train of discussion.

While living in Manila, my wife and I decided to visit her aunt in Zambales province of the Philippines. While we were there, we went on a bit of a "walkabout." We were going in the direction of the beach, and when we got there, we found ourselves in the middle of a small fishing village. The inhabitants gathered around us and were curious but friendly. The kids stared me with such curiosity. I was probably the first white guy the young ones had ever seen. Despite walking into their village unannounced and uninvited, they did not treat us as intruders, but rather as guests. They led us down to the beach, and offered one of their fishing boats for us to take out. I was surprised that they would offer their boat, their livelihood, with no reservation, to complete strangers. Later they made lunch for us (fish, of course) and ate with us. They were some of the happiest people I've ever met. Genuinely happy; you can tell the difference when you see someone who isn't holding anything back. The fellowship was strong; if they weren't all family, they sure acted like it, and acted like a strong family at that. I truly enjoyed my time there. I've thought about going back very often. Hell, maybe I'd even like to live there.

These people lived in homes made of sticks. Some made of cinder blocks, but mostly of sticks. I saw one electronic device, and old radio that didn't work. They had a community garden, and traded fish at a local market for whatever they needed that couldn't be retrieved from the garden or from the sea. We went in the middle of the day in the middle of the week, and they weren't working (fishing). I estimate that they probably put in 10-20 hours/week of work, maybe less. I often think that maybe they are the ones who "have it all figured out." I often think that their ~20hr work week is all that we were ever really intended to work. The extra 20-40 hours that the rest of us stack on top of that is for no reason other than to line the pockets of someone else. We are fools. Fools usually think they know best, and must educate everybody else.

Teaching these people about "work ethic" and how to slave away at a daily grind, making unnecessary products to earn a paycheck so that they can consume unnecessary products, would feel like teaching my daughter how to stand on a street corner and sell her body for crack.

I'm the white guy, and the girl on the boat with me is my wife.

 

If you guys get the chance, watch "Confessions of an Economic Hitman".

The way we deal with other Countries, is to put them in massive debt; that can never be paid back.

That way, we control all facets of their lives.

The U.S. is getting closer to that by the day.

We already have some people convinced that they, each; owe the Feds $55,000.

I didn't run up that debt, so I don't owe them a dime....

I watched this:

Confessions of an Economic Hit Man

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTbdnNgqfs8

Thanks for the tip.

 

What I find bizarre is that your all electronic engineers, you all live in the developed west, and yet your saying the third world should be kept as it is and all the third worlders should be kept in the third world.

So essentially anyone born there would have absolutely no chance whatsoever of living a better life. And yes there are plenty of people living in squalor and poverty in the third world who would love to come to europe, hence our immigration problem. I dont see third world countries fighting to keep out the european immigrants.

Speaking of phillipines, what about all of those underage girls who prostitute themselves to bring a better standard of living to their famlies.

I can believe your all happy to sit there and condemn to the third world to a life of poverty and squalor and diease, famine, illiteracy and malnurishment whilst keeping a nice little living for yourself.

If you really thought their lives were better you'd be living over there and you wouldn't be electronic engineers for sure. Sounds almost like we want to keep the rest of the world down and underdeveloped.

Can't anyone see the contradictions here?

 

My high school was a cattle barn by western standards.

We played cricket using a bat made from a coconut tree branch and a ball made from cutting up a bicycle inner tube into elastic bands.

Our football was a mango seed.

Never once do I recall thinking that we were underdeveloped or deprived.

 

What I find bizarre is that your all electronic engineers, you all live in the developed west, and yet your saying the third world should be kept as it is and all the third worlders should be kept in the third world.

So essentially anyone born there would have absolutely no chance whatsoever of living a better life. And yes there are plenty of people living in squalor and poverty in the third world who would love to come to europe, hence our immigration problem. I dont see third world countries fighting to keep out the european immigrants.

Speaking of phillipines, what about all of those underage girls who prostitute themselves to bring a better standard of living to their famlies.

I can believe your all happy to sit there and condemn to the third world to a life of poverty and squalor and diease, famine, illiteracy and malnurishment whilst keeping a nice little living for yourself.

If you really thought their lives were better you'd be living over there and you wouldn't be electronic engineers for sure. Sounds almost like we want to keep the rest of the world down and underdeveloped.

Can't anyone see the contradictions here?

I see the source of your confusion. Let me take you back to the snickers bar analogy. I wouldn't enjoy living in a grass hut now, because I've experienced air conditioning. If I hadn't, then no problemo. Should I return the fishing village, introduce them to climate control, and then leave? no. because they'd never be happy living without it after that. Blissful ignorance, what's wrong with that? I envy it.

BTW I never condemned anyone to any of the things I've just been accused of.

 

I take it you will be returning to your amazing life back there then away from the horrible developed west?

And I take it you think things like this are only a god given right of the west and not any african or asian nations?

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...35000291465.235599.17610706465&type=1&theater

but don't worry, we might sell them a few computers if they have some diamonds and oil for us and then they can look at our research and space exploration online

 

I see the source of your confusion. Let me take you back to the snickers bar analogy. I wouldn't enjoy living in a grass hut now, because I've experienced air conditioning. If I hadn't, then no problemo. Should I return the fishing village, introduce them to climate control, and then leave? no. because they'd never be happy living without it after that. Blissful ignorance, what's wrong with that? I envy it.

BTW I never condemned anyone to any of the things I've just been accused of.

I see, so the west needs air conditioning but not africa. Sounds reasonable enough. You have more right to the air conditioning than an african

 

I see you don't get it.

A country and its people don't think they're underdeveloped until someone tells them they're underdeveloped.

I am not talking about leaving any country or people in squalor and poverty. I am talking about we have no right to impose our lifestyle on to another culture or nation.

 

I take it you are against any sort of new technology then? Wouldn't want us getting addicted to any other technology now, would we?

 

Where I was born, 30C temperature is the norm. When I was there no one (excepts the banks) had air conditioning. I don't recall ever hearing anyone complaining that it was too hot.

 

I see you don't get it.

A country and its people don't think they're underdeveloped until someone tells them they're underdeveloped.

I am not talking about leaving any country or people in squalor and poverty. I am talking about we have no right to impose our lifestyle on to another culture or nation.

Im not talking about forcing anything. If a country doesnt want technology thats fine. but currently millions of students from the third world are studying in western universities, living our lifestyles, and learning our technology and I speak to many of them and they all want this development back home. So for countries that do want to develop more, my question was HOW.

 

I take it you are against any sort of new technology then? Wouldn't want us getting addicted to any other technology now, would we?

Non sequitur. Don't see how you arrived at that conclusion.