Hmm breakthrough or scam?

MisterBill2

Joined Jan 23, 2018
18,519
Thanks guys. What I heard I heard when I was a little guy. Someone either in the family or a close friend was talking about water injection boosting power. As a young driver I tried it. The best I got was a steam cleaned piston cylinder or two. Or eight. But I never noticed any increase in gas mileage or in performance. The way I heard it was that it was used to boost power during takeoff. At least that's as much as I remember. Beyond that I know nothing about it. Just that I tried it and got nowhere with it. Same with HHO.
At one time it was referenced as "Battle Emergency Power Boost", and with overdrive to the supercharger , more fuel, and a lot of spark advance the engines certainly did put out more power. And the water kept them from blowing up. Perhaps water injection alone can improve performance or efficiency some, but not nearly as much.
 

WBahn

Joined Mar 31, 2012
30,062
At one time it was referenced as "Battle Emergency Power Boost", and with overdrive to the supercharger , more fuel, and a lot of spark advance the engines certainly did put out more power. And the water kept them from blowing up. Perhaps water injection alone can improve performance or efficiency some, but not nearly as much.
It can, but only in pretty specific situations. Modern computer-controlled engines pretty much guarantee that those situations never arise, so adding water injection to such an engine without extensive reprogramming of the computer generally leads to worse performance and eventual engine damage.
 

shortbus

Joined Sep 30, 2009
10,045
The way I understand it, it does both things. It increases power by increasing air density at the intake due to its cooling effect, and it therefore allows even more fuel to be injected so that more power can be generated.
Diesel pulling tractors also inject some water in the exhaust stream between the turbochargers, depending on the class they pull in they can have 2 or more in series. The water injected there makes steam to increase the out put of the turbo.
 

MisterBill2

Joined Jan 23, 2018
18,519
Are you claiming that the supercharger drive was variable? That's what it sounds like, at least to me. I'd like to see the basis of that if that is what your saying.
The reference was to a TURBO-supercharger, NOT a belt driven one. They are totally different things. The TURBO-supercharger is driven by the exhaust stream pressure and flow, not by the wide belt from the crankshaft pulley. I can see that adding water to that exhaust stream would add to the energy recovery effectiveness of the turbine. A belt driven supercharger would not make a lot of sense on a typical low-reving diesel engine, because they need to spin very fast..
 

cmartinez

Joined Jan 17, 2007
8,255
The reference was to a TURBO-supercharger, NOT a belt driven one. They are totally different things. The TURBO-supercharger is driven by the exhaust stream pressure and flow, not by the wide belt from the crankshaft pulley. I can see that adding water to that exhaust stream would add to the energy recovery effectiveness of the turbine. A belt driven supercharger would not make a lot of sense on a typical low-reving diesel engine, because they need to spin very fast..
First time I've heard of a Turbo-Supercharcher... I'm only familiar with Turbochargers and Superchargers, with the former being driven by the engine's exhaust gases and the latter directly by a belt.
 

Thread Starter

Wolframore

Joined Jan 21, 2019
2,610
I wonder how much of the waters job was to cool the super hot compressed air. I have an alcohol sprayer on my intercooler. The compressed air get hot so cooling it allows you to get denser which equates to more power!!!
 
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MisterBill2

Joined Jan 23, 2018
18,519
First time I've heard of a Turbo-Supercharcher... I'm only familiar with Turbochargers and Superchargers, with the former being driven by the engine's exhaust gases and the latter directly by a belt.
Turbocharger is a contraction of turbo-supercharger. The term has been around for many years, and it was used by folks specifying engine components for use on oil rig engines..
 

MrSoftware

Joined Oct 29, 2013
2,201
Diesel pulling tractors also inject some water in the exhaust stream between the turbochargers, depending on the class they pull in they can have 2 or more in series. The water injected there makes steam to increase the out put of the turbo.
I don't think this would be the reason for water injection there. The driven side of the turbo captures unused energy in the exhaust. Injecting water into the exhaust ahead of the turbo would diminish the returns by sucking up energy, changing water from liquid to gas is endothermic. Perhaps they are injecting water to keep temps down to a level that won't destroy the turbo?

The reference was to a TURBO-supercharger, NOT a belt driven one. They are totally different things. The TURBO-supercharger is driven by the exhaust stream pressure and flow, not by the wide belt from the crankshaft pulley. I can see that adding water to that exhaust stream would add to the energy recovery effectiveness of the turbine. A belt driven supercharger would not make a lot of sense on a typical low-reving diesel engine, because they need to spin very fast..
If you're referring to a centrifugal supercharger, such as those made by Paxton, a gearbox can make up for lack of crankshaft speed. There are two reasons, that I'm aware of, superchargers aren't used much on 4-stroke diesels (common on 2-stroke diesels). First it's not efficient. It takes a lot of power, from the crankshaft, to run a mechanically driven supercharger. That's more fuel burn and more stress on the engine. Turbos recapture unused energy in the exhaust so you don't have the same penalty with a turbo. Secondly roots type superchargers heat the air A LOT, and hot air is less dense, which means less power. Injecting water or methanol can cool the air and bring density back, but that's a lot of extra stuff for a daily driver or commercial engine. Gale Banks has an excellent series where he covers some of this. In this video specifically he clamps a big roots blower to a diesel engine and shows, with data, why it doesn't work very well. The rest of the series is an excellent watch if you have the time:

 

MisterBill2

Joined Jan 23, 2018
18,519
I just figured out that the reason they don't use water injection along with nitrous oxide injection is that mixing those two would produce nitric acid, which is hard on engines and living things. Just an interesting thought relative to high performance engines. Probablya bit off the wall as well. But it is that sort of day today.
 

WBahn

Joined Mar 31, 2012
30,062
First time I've heard of a Turbo-Supercharcher... I'm only familiar with Turbochargers and Superchargers, with the former being driven by the engine's exhaust gases and the latter directly by a belt.
Turbosupercharger is an older name (though still used in some contexts) for what we usually call just a turbocharger these days. It was originally known as a turbine-driven supercharger, which became turbosupercharger, which became turbocharger.
 

shortbus

Joined Sep 30, 2009
10,045
I don't think this would be the reason for water injection there. The driven side of the turbo captures unused energy in the exhaust. Injecting water into the exhaust ahead of the turbo would diminish the returns by sucking up energy, changing water from liquid to gas is endothermic. Perhaps they are injecting water to keep temps down to a level that won't destroy the turbo?
Taht would be so in a single turbo use. But diesel tractors and trucks in some classes of pulling can have as many as 4 of them in series, with both the turbine and compressor in series. They inject the water in the down stream exhaust, between turbines to keep up the pressure. If you see one of the tractors in a pull, they start to spool up the turbos on the starting line and a flame shoots out of the stack then the water starts to get injected to keep the final turbine producing high out put. Since the last turbo in the series is the least powerful, it's compressor is the first boost stage.
 

shortbus

Joined Sep 30, 2009
10,045
I just figured out that the reason they don't use water injection along with nitrous oxide injection is that mixing those two would produce nitric acid,
No. The water and nitrous will both get burned in the combustion before it would ever make nitric acid. The nitrous it's self adds both oxygen and air charge cooling all by it's self, no water needed. But you do need to add extra fuel with nitrous or burn down the piston tops.
 

WBahn

Joined Mar 31, 2012
30,062
While that says they were invented before WW2, I was wanting to know about one used during the war on an airplane, since mrbill said he investigated their use in an air craft of that era.
Nearly all combat aircraft in WWII used forced induction. Fighters typically used multistage, multispeed superchargers because they didn't have the room to accommodate the piping needed for interstage cooling of the turbochargers. Bombers and a few of the larger fighters generally used both types in series. Some German aircraft, including some models of the Bf-109 and Fw-190, used continuously variable (over a fairly wide range) superchargers that utilized fluid power couplings to drive them.
 

Travm

Joined Aug 16, 2016
363
Nearly all combat aircraft in WWII used forced induction. Fighters typically used multistage, multispeed superchargers because they didn't have the room to accommodate the piping needed for interstage cooling of the turbochargers. Bombers and a few of the larger fighters generally used both types in series. Some German aircraft, including some models of the Bf-109 and Fw-190, used continuously variable (over a fairly wide range) superchargers that utilized fluid power couplings to drive them.
The ME-109 Superchargers were ingenious, and way ahead of their time. That entire airframe remained relevant for a very long time.

and dont forget, it had a bloody cannon designed to fit inside the engine.
 
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WBahn

Joined Mar 31, 2012
30,062
The ME-109 Superchargers were ingenious, and way ahead of their time. That entire airframe remained relevant for a very long time.

and dont forget, it had a bloody cannon designed to fit inside the engine.
The cannon was NOT inside the engine. The cannon sat behind the engine with the barrel extending into a blast tube that was located between the two banks of engine cylinders (it was V-block engine). The blast tube then extended through the propeller shaft, which was offset from the engine crankshaft by the propeller gear box.
 

Travm

Joined Aug 16, 2016
363
The cannon was NOT inside the engine. The cannon sat behind the engine with the barrel extending into a blast tube that was located between the two banks of engine cylinders (it was V-block engine). The blast tube then extended through the propeller shaft, which was offset from the engine crankshaft by the propeller gear box.
The cannon was inside the engine. They called it a Motorkanone.
The breech, and loading mechanisms were fundamentally behind the engine. But the actual barrel of the cannon fit "through" a space specifically designed to be there, surrounded top, bottom, left, and right, by engine. That is inside the engine.


I'll agree with it not being an "engine part", but the canon was inside the engine.
 
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