Hmm breakthrough or scam?

WBahn

Joined Mar 31, 2012
32,854
Was it WC Fields who said "There's a sucker born every minute"? [edit] No, wait! Wasn't that PT Barnum? {end edit} Well, at one time that may have been true. But it appears more and more that there's a sucker born every 20 seconds.

Looking back on those gas mileage scams - remember water injection??? I heard it was a real thing used on fighter planes back in the pre-jet age aircraft where during take-off they injected water into the carburetors to boost power.
The water injection systems on piston-driven fighters was primarily used at high altitude in high boost situations for very short periods of time. In turbosupercharged engines, especially operating at high altitude where you are starting with very low ambient atmospheric pressures, the compression needed to get the pressure up to sea level pressure also results in tremendous heating of the air. Add in the fact that, at such altitudes and air densities, you have a lot less ability to carry heat away from the engine than at lower altitudes. So when they needed maximum boost they would inject water into the air stream to both further increase the pressure (due to the water converting to steam) and to reduce the temperature to something that wouldn't result in detonation of the fuel air mixture.
 

joeyd999

Joined Jun 6, 2011
6,303
"This is Microsoft. We've detected a problem with your computer."
Oh, these are fun calls! I play along with them and follow their instructions step-by-step, playing dumb the whole time. Only after at least a 1/2 hour into the call do they realize I don't use Windows.
 

WBahn

Joined Mar 31, 2012
32,854
Oh, these are fun calls! I play along with them and follow their instructions step-by-step, playing dumb the whole time. Only after at least a 1/2 hour into the call do they realize I don't use Windows.
I've had more than a few fun-filled hours with them as well. I haven't gotten a call from them for quite some time now (maybe even a few years). I don't know if that's because they figured it was an unusually excessive waste of their time to call me and actually purged my number form their lists, or the scam as a whole has just largely run its course. I suspect it's the latter.
 

Travm

Joined Aug 16, 2016
363
my favorite part of that whole ad, was the bit at the end encouraging people to buy lots and resell them for a profit due to short supply!
 

MisterBill2

Joined Jan 23, 2018
27,540
Was it WC Fields who said "There's a sucker born every minute"? [edit] No, wait! Wasn't that PT Barnum? {end edit} Well, at one time that may have been true. But it appears more and more that there's a sucker born every 20 seconds.

Looking back on those gas mileage scams - remember water injection??? I heard it was a real thing used on fighter planes back in the pre-jet age aircraft where during take-off they injected water into the carburetors to boost power. I remember trying several home made systems on my 72 Nova. Never really saw any improvement and soon gave up the attempt. I also saw where someone made a system that injected water directly into the gas line using a syringe piercing the fuel line. I KNEW that wouldn't work. Fuel pressure would have been higher than the water pressure pumping it into the line and would blow fuel back out into whatever, causing a risk of fire. Also knew gas and water doesn't mix.

Admittedly I did experiment with HHO systems. What I learned is that I can make some interesting party tricks with it. But fuel mileage increases??? Nope! Fact is - whatever energy you unleash is offset by the amount of energy needed to liberate that energy. In a perfect world you'd get a 1:1 exchange of energy. Since this world isn't perfect, some of that energy is wasted as heat. End result is worse fuel mileage, but not much worse, just whatever is wasted as heat.

As for "Stupid" people vs. "Smart" - - - not sure smartness has anything to do with it. Education COULD help - but only if that education was aimed at teaching students how to spot shams. Sadly, some of our education is a sham as well. Take history for example: It's written by the victors who embellish their accomplishments while showing the vanquished as being - um - stupid? I don't know. I just know that I'm getting quite the education in spotting shams and scams. So much so that I may actually miss a real opportunity. But I get these calls all the time how my phone number has been selected to receive a free vacation. Hanging up and dialing their number back reveals a number that is not in operation. So whomever was calling couldn't be a real thing. Besides - I don't need FREE vacations. Calls from the IRS or the United States Treasury - or some local cop - it all smacks of fraud. When the cop called I called the REAL cops he claimed to represent. Yup! Sham. Wanted money I'm sure.

"This is Microsoft. We've detected a problem with your computer." My response is "Which computer? What mac address please?" They just hang up.
I read and studied the service manual for some of those aircraft engines that used water injection and most folks have it all wrong. The water injection was not what gave the large power boost, that came from a rather large boost in intake manifold pressure plus appropriate spark advance, and sometimes other tricks to get a lot more power. The water injection was to prevent the engine from blowing up because of the boost. The truth was hidden so that the enemy would not use the same methods of increasing power, and the lie sounded so reasonable that it persisted for many years.
 

MisterBill2

Joined Jan 23, 2018
27,540
Once again, understand the reason, as explained in that article: "As Jason Fenske of Engineering Explained details in this new video, the water-injection system allowed BMW engineers to crank up turbo boost and advance spark timing without increasing knock or decreasing reliability." The water injection allows doing the other things without damaging the engine. The increase in performance is created by the increased advance and boost. The water injection prevents engine destruction.
 

shortbus

Joined Sep 30, 2009
10,050
Oh I do understand. I talk with tractor pull people all of the time that use it, and it is much more involved than your airplane engine talk. My link was meant to show it isn't something that was done years ago but is still viable today, which is what you didn't seem to understand when I said in my post, "Water injection is alive and well today".
 

MisterBill2

Joined Jan 23, 2018
27,540
Oh I do understand. I talk with tractor pull people all of the time that use it, and it is much more involved than your airplane engine talk. My link was meant to show it isn't something that was done years ago but is still viable today, which is what you didn't seem to understand when I said in my post, "Water injection is alive and well today".
OK, and the point that I was trying to make is that it is not the water injection that boosts the performance, but it is what keeps the engine from failing as the performance is boosted.
 

cmartinez

Joined Jan 17, 2007
8,765
OK, and the point that I was trying to make is that it is not the water injection that boosts the performance, but it is what keeps the engine from failing as the performance is boosted.
The way I understand it, it does both things. It increases power by increasing air density at the intake due to its cooling effect, and it therefore allows even more fuel to be injected so that more power can be generated. All this pushes the engine into performance extremes that would otherwise damage or destroy it.
 

Tonyr1084

Joined Sep 24, 2015
9,744
The water injection systems on piston-driven fighters was primarily used at high altitude in high boost situations for very short periods of time. In turbosupercharged engines, especially operating at high altitude where you are starting with very low ambient atmospheric pressures, the compression needed to get the pressure up to sea level pressure also results in tremendous heating of the air. Add in the fact that, at such altitudes and air densities, you have a lot less ability to carry heat away from the engine than at lower altitudes. So when they needed maximum boost they would inject water into the air stream to both further increase the pressure (due to the water converting to steam) and to reduce the temperature to something that wouldn't result in detonation of the fuel air mixture.
I read and studied the service manual for some of those aircraft engines that used water injection and most folks have it all wrong. The water injection was not what gave the large power boost, that came from a rather large boost in intake manifold pressure plus appropriate spark advance, and sometimes other tricks to get a lot more power. The water injection was to prevent the engine from blowing up because of the boost. The truth was hidden so that the enemy would not use the same methods of increasing power, and the lie sounded so reasonable that it persisted for many years.
Thanks guys. What I heard I heard when I was a little guy. Someone either in the family or a close friend was talking about water injection boosting power. As a young driver I tried it. The best I got was a steam cleaned piston cylinder or two. Or eight. But I never noticed any increase in gas mileage or in performance. The way I heard it was that it was used to boost power during takeoff. At least that's as much as I remember. Beyond that I know nothing about it. Just that I tried it and got nowhere with it. Same with HHO.
 
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