Hall effect sensor for diy ignition

LowQCab

Joined Nov 6, 2012
5,101
Why would I need to use the ballast resistor if using an e coil similar to what vehicles that came from factory with a TFI module used?
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As I said, it depends on the Coil used,
and,
the way that the particular Ignition-Module or ECU used handles Coil "Dwell-Time".

One of the pictures You provided shows a Coil that is integrated into the Distributor,
if You intend to re-use that Coil, You must know how it was designed to be used, ( with a Ballast-Resistor )..

A Ballast-Resistor is designed to limit the Power going to the Coil during periods where
the Dwell-Time may be inadvertently "excessive",
such as when the Ignition-Key is "On", but the Engine is not running,
or the Points are severely out of adjustment, causing excessive Dwell-Time,
either of which can cause the Coil to overheat and fail.
The Ballast-Resistor is taken out of Circuit during Starter-Engagement because the Starter will
most definitely cause the Battery-Voltage to drop, which can cause a very weak-Spark, or no Spark at all.
Cranking periods are normally not long enough to cause the Coil to build-up excessive Heat.

Most automotive ECUs Electronically control the Coil-Dwell-Time,
based on Voltage, Temperature, Cranking, Engine-Load, Engine-RPM,
and a variety of other monitored factors.
But, a Points-style Ignition-System has no control over Dwell-Time,
therefore, it must be designed for "worst-case" conditions.
Only the Points-Gap, and RPM, will change the Dwell-Time, in a Points-style Ignition-System,
and the Dwell-change vs RPM is practically the reverse of what would be the most ideal.
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Thread Starter

stryped

Joined Sep 17, 2023
136
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As I said, it depends on the Coil used,
and,
the way that the particular Ignition-Module or ECU used handles Coil "Dwell-Time".

One of the pictures You provided shows a Coil that is integrated into the Distributor,
if You intend to re-use that Coil, You must know how it was designed to be used, ( with a Ballast-Resistor )..

A Ballast-Resistor is designed to limit the Power going to the Coil during periods where
the Dwell-Time may be inadvertently "excessive",
such as when the Ignition-Key is "On", but the Engine is not running,
or the Points are severely out of adjustment, causing excessive Dwell-Time,
either of which can cause the Coil to overheat and fail.
The Ballast-Resistor is taken out of Circuit during Starter-Engagement because the Starter will
most definitely cause the Battery-Voltage to drop, which can cause a very weak-Spark, or no Spark at all.
Cranking periods are normally not long enough to cause the Coil to build-up excessive Heat.

Most automotive ECUs Electronically control the Coil-Dwell-Time,
based on Voltage, Temperature, Cranking, Engine-Load, Engine-RPM,
and a variety of other monitored factors.
But, a Points-style Ignition-System has no control over Dwell-Time,
therefore, it must be designed for "worst-case" conditions.
Only the Points-Gap, and RPM, will change the Dwell-Time, in a Points-style Ignition-System,
and the Dwell-change vs RPM is practically the reverse of what would be the most ideal.
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Should the condenser in the coil be removed when using a TFI module triggered by points?
 

MisterBill2

Joined Jan 23, 2018
27,563
Actually, in the older type coil and breaker points ignition systems, it was the dwell angle that was set by setting the breaker points gap. The smaller the gap the greater the angle of rotation during the points closed interval. THAT is the reason that it was always important to set the gap before setting the timing. In the original system, energy storage during the dwell angle time was very important.

The Capacitor Discharge system reduced the need to set the dwell by always providing adequate spark, relatively independent of the dwell, as long as the capacitor charge time was adequate.
 

MaxHeadRoom

Joined Jul 18, 2013
30,671
In that scenario, I may be tempted to extend the circuit I used with the electric fence design, using a waste spark coil, and use the points to trigger the power Mosfet,
GND out the unused waste spark side of the coil.
No pitting of contacts should occur! :cool:
 

crutschow

Joined Mar 14, 2008
38,526
Interestingly, a capacitive discharge system may better work with fouled plugs, but the longer duration spark of an inductive system may more effectively ignite the fuel-air mixture otherwise.
I think most coil-on-plug systems use the inductive fly-back design to generate the high voltage.
 

LowQCab

Joined Nov 6, 2012
5,101
Should the condenser in the coil be removed when using a TFI module triggered by points?
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The Condenser is normally mounted inside the Distributor next to the Points,
but who knows, Ford is known for doing some odd stuff, and then calling it "a better idea".

The Condenser is ONLY for use in conjunction with Points.
No Points = No Condenser.
Points will hardly function at all without a properly matched Condenser.
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LowQCab

Joined Nov 6, 2012
5,101
I think You may have simply mis-read my post.
It is completely accurate.

I covered the general function of the Condenser as well as saying it is only for use with Points.

What I left out, is that the Condenser can actually damage some Ignition-Modules,
but I didn't recognize the omission right away, my bad.
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LowQCab

Joined Nov 6, 2012
5,101
In what specific way ?
How am I to recognize a mistake if You do not directly point it out ?
( cut & paste, followed by correction )

I can't be offended, so please don't be concerned about that.

I appreciate being corrected.
as I am certainly not perfect,
and do not want to say something that may be misleading.

Please be specific.
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Thread Starter

stryped

Joined Sep 17, 2023
136

LowQCab

Joined Nov 6, 2012
5,101
When referring to Points-Ignition-Parts in the USA,
they are still listed in the Parts-Manuals as a "Condenser".
I guess old habits die hard.
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LowQCab

Joined Nov 6, 2012
5,101
Could you explain how I could implement for my tractor?
Thanks for the help!
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I briefly explained in an earlier post.

You would need a Steel "Disc",
usually sandwiched between the Harmonic-Damper and the Crank-Pulley.
The type and size of the "Teeth" or "Slots" in the Disc will depend upon
what You are using as an Ignition-Module.

A "60-minus-2" Wheel is only required when using a Micro-Controller to vary the Ignition-Timing,
( such as Speeduino or Mega/Micro-Squirt, or any of the many available aftermarket ECUs )

When using a "Variable-Reluctance" Sensor, with a TFI or HEI Module,
and when, NO Ignition-Advance-Features are expected,
there needs to be 2 large "Teeth" or "Vanes", ( for a 4-Cylinder-Engine ), 180-degrees apart.

The "Variable-Reluctance" Sensor must be mounted to a slotted-mounting-bracket
to facilitate adjusting the Static-Ignition-Advance,
and, for adjusting the clearance-gap between the Sensor and the rotating Disc.

A "Variable-Reluctance" Sensor, is used because it doesn't "switch" on or off when the Engine is not running,
this prevents burning-up the Ignition-Coil if the Ignition-Switch is left on with the Engine NOT running.

A "Variable-Reluctance" Sensor is NOT a "Hall-Effect"-Sensor.

A "Variable-Reluctance" Sensor contains a coil of Wire which
creates a Voltage-pulse only when motion is detected in very close proximity to it's tip..

A Hall-Effect-Sensor Electronically switches on or off depending on
it's proximity to a particularly oriented Magnetic-Field,
therefore, it can be semi-permanently on or off if there is no motion.

A Hall-Effect-Sensor will not work with either TFI or HEI-Modules,
because they both are designed to operate with a "Variable-Reluctance" Sensor as an input.
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MisterBill2

Joined Jan 23, 2018
27,563
The Capacitor discharge system I used seemed to let the stock ignition coil ring a cycle or two and it certainly produced a serious spark. And do you really think that the coil-on-plug system was developed for anything except a cost reduction?? Just a further reduction than the multi-coil scheme to avoid needing the precisely machined distributor.
The name of the game is always cost reduction first!!
 

LowQCab

Joined Nov 6, 2012
5,101
The Capacitor discharge system I used seemed to let the stock ignition coil ring a cycle or two and it certainly produced a serious spark. And do you really think that the coil-on-plug system was developed for anything except a cost reduction?? Just a further reduction than the multi-coil scheme to avoid needing the precisely machined distributor.
The name of the game is always cost reduction first!!
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I would tend to disagree with You in this case MrBill.
The COP concept came into being when the government decreed that all Cars manufactured after "X"-date
will maintain their emissions-specifications for a minimum of 100,000-miles, "without required maintenance".

A Distributor-Cap and long Spark-Plug-Wires strewn all over the place are just not up to that task.

This is also the reason for "Platinum-Tipped" Spark-Plugs, they will go 100,000-miles without failure.

I think COP is a fantastic advancement, especially for Hot-Rodders, Racers and tinkerers.
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Thread Starter

stryped

Joined Sep 17, 2023
136
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I briefly explained in an earlier post.

You would need a Steel "Disc",
usually sandwiched between the Harmonic-Damper and the Crank-Pulley.
The type and size of the "Teeth" or "Slots" in the Disc will depend upon
what You are using as an Ignition-Module.

A "60-minus-2" Wheel is only required when using a Micro-Controller to vary the Ignition-Timing,
( such as Speeduino or Mega/Micro-Squirt, or any of the many available aftermarket ECUs )

When using a "Variable-Reluctance" Sensor, with a TFI or HEI Module,
and when, NO Ignition-Advance-Features are expected,
there needs to be 2 large "Teeth" or "Vanes", ( for a 4-Cylinder-Engine ), 180-degrees apart.

The "Variable-Reluctance" Sensor must be mounted to a slotted-mounting-bracket
to facilitate adjusting the Static-Ignition-Advance,
and, for adjusting the clearance-gap between the Sensor and the rotating Disc.

A "Variable-Reluctance" Sensor, is used because it doesn't "switch" on or off when the Engine is not running,
this prevents burning-up the Ignition-Coil if the Ignition-Switch is left on with the Engine NOT running.

A "Variable-Reluctance" Sensor is NOT a "Hall-Effect"-Sensor.

A "Variable-Reluctance" Sensor contains a coil of Wire which
creates a Voltage-pulse only when motion is detected in very close proximity to it's tip..

A Hall-Effect-Sensor Electronically switches on or off depending on
it's proximity to a particularly oriented Magnetic-Field,
therefore, it can be semi-permanently on or off if there is no motion.

A Hall-Effect-Sensor will not work with either TFI or HEI-Modules,
because they both are designed to operate with a "Variable-Reluctance" Sensor as an input.
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But I would still need some sort of ECU to go this route wouldn’t I?
 

LowQCab

Joined Nov 6, 2012
5,101
But I would still need some sort of ECU to go this route wouldn’t I?
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Not for a Tractor-Engine.
A Tractor-Engine will perform adequately and reliably with Fixed-Timing-Advance,
just like a Lawn-Mower-Engine.

But of course there are definite advantages to having a nice 12 X 12 Timing-Map built-in to an ECU ........
snappier starting,
better Fuel-Efficiency,
quieter Exhaust-Note when Engine is under light-Loads,
Engine-Speed-Governing at Idle, and Wide-Open-Throttle,
cooler-running-Engine,
more Horsepower / Torque,
protection from "Knock" due to overheating or really bad Gas when under heavy-Loads,
( which is really only necessary when increasing the Compression-Ratio substantially, like ~10 to 1 CR ).
All this requires an extensive understanding, and "feel-for", what the Engine wants and responds to.

Of course, keep in mind that the most practical approach is to ......
remove the Condenser, discard it,
use the Points to operate an Electronic-Ignition-Module,
retain the Ballast-Resistor, and the original Ignition-Coil,
and everything will work-out just fine,
and probably cost a total of around ~$100.oo for the Ignition-Module.
( avoid using a TFI or HEI-Module, get an aftermarket Ignition-Module in a factory sealed Aluminum-Box )

Everything else is just ~80% "Cool-Factor", and ~20% practical improvements,
and maybe because You really like your old Tractor and want a project to keep busy with.
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