When facts, logic and reason fail ...

"A MAN WITH A CONVICTION is a hard man to change. Tell him you disagree and he turns away. Show him facts or figures and he questions your sources. Appeal to logic and he fails to see your point."

Leon Festinger

-Once again, believe and say what you want.
Truth speaks for itself.

 

Hi,

I didnt understand that statement either. My best guess was that WBahn was taking the definition of current as moving positive charges as being the ONLY definition of current. I am thinking now that he changed that stance.

But the most general case is where we have two unequal charges in free space. If held in place at a distance D they dont move, but if let go, they move toward each other at the same rate so they should meet directly at a distance of D/2 from their original starting points. That's if we consider the charge only, and if we consider the mass as well then the equations of motion will also come into play and cause the meeting distance to be different. The more important point though is that they will both move, in opposite directions until they meet.
So it is POSSIBLE for either charge to move, but i dont think this kind of movement, which is truly a physical movement of both charges, ever happens in a wire unless maybe the wire is heated, and then probably only thermal expansion and more hap hazard collisions could cause atoms to shift, but i dont think we can classify that as part of the current because it would probably be just random.

I too view this thread and threads like this as being informative because questions that are on many people's minds come up and are discussed, and that leads to better understanding. It's like a "think tank" where opinions are expressed and the less important are eventually weeded out. Very good overall i think.

-So what kind of movement happens in the wire then.
Just asking.

 

-Once again, believe and say what you want.
Truth speaks for itself.

My objection is that some people seem to see the electrons in wire gaining energy similar to the way they believe the actual rock gains energy from being carried up a hill. It's important to understand the system not just the rock in isolation. It (energy) is in the system -- the rock plus the earth and the gravitational field associated with them. An electron 'Truth' fixation will cause you to miss the whole picture of what's really important in understanding circuits. Most of us have been at this stage at some point in our learning experiences and have scars from that process. There's no need for others to get them.

 

-So what kind of movement happens in the wire then.
Just asking.

Hi,

Havent we been saying that it is mostly electrons?

See, you probably wont gain anything much more here unless you decide to study physics in much greater detail, such as quantum electrodynamics or something along that line. That's because in order to explain this stuff you have to dig into the most recent experiments and results and the most current knowledge on these subjects. Maybe solid state physics.
Without doing some study like that it wont make any sense because it's just words being thrown at you. If you dont accept the simpler things being told to you, then you have to dig deeper into it, into the mathematics, the physics. Then you'll be just as bewildered as the rest of us when you find out that some theories about the electron contradict other theories
If we talked about an apple falling from a tree, we could say it goes down, and some leaves on the ground might blow up past the first branch of the tree, so things are moving in both directions. But that doesnt really explain why all this happens. We have to know more about what an apple is, what gravity is, what turbulence is, etc. Then a tornado comes along, and we have to explain what happens to the apples and the leaves as the tornado hits. We can only go so far with simple concepts and then we have to get totally into it.

For example, one view is that the electrons form a group that acts similar to a gas. So the gas moves down the wire in a manner similar to a gas in a pipe. Does that really help? Maybe a little, but that's it, and you seem to want more, so dig in. Get a good book on the subject or find something on the web which will help.

How much physics and mathematics have you had in the past?

 

-So what kind of movement happens in the wire then.
Just asking.

And it's been explained over and over. What's the point of explaining it yet again?

 

And it's been explained over and over. What's the point of explaining it yet again?

Just like you guys did with you know who. And what was the final decision on him?

 

Havent we been saying that it is mostly electrons?

-Yes

See, you probably wont gain anything much more here unless you decide to study physics in much greater detail, such as quantum electrodynamics or something along that line. That's because in order to explain this stuff you have to dig into the most recent experiments and results and the most current knowledge on these subjects. Maybe solid state physics.
Without doing some study like that it wont make any sense because it's just words being thrown at you. If you dont accept the simpler things being told to you, then you have to dig deeper into it, into the mathematics, the physics. Then you'll be just as bewildered as the rest of us when you find out that some theories about the electron contradict other theories
If we talked about an apple falling from a tree, we could say it goes down, and some leaves on the ground might blow up past the first branch of the tree, so things are moving in both directions. But that doesnt really explain why all this happens. We have to know more about what an apple is, what gravity is, what turbulence is, etc. Then a tornado comes along, and we have to explain what happens to the apples and the leaves as the tornado hits. We can only go so far with simple concepts and then we have to get totally into it.

For example, one view is that the electrons form a group that acts similar to a gas. So the gas moves down the wire in a manner similar to a gas in a pipe. Does that really help?

- No. The " ball bearing " & truck-widgets (WBahn) analogies were best.

Maybe a little, but that's it, and you seem to want more, so dig in. Get a good book on the subject or find something on the web which will help.

How much physics and mathematics have you had in the past?[/QUOTE]

-Enough to feel 280V AC run through my chest.

 

And it's been explained over and over. What's the point of explaining it yet again?

-I wanted to hear what " his " answer would say.

 

My objection is that some people seem to see the electrons in wire gaining energy similar to the way they believe the actual rock gains energy from being carried up a hill. It's important to understand the system not just the rock in isolation. It (energy) is in the system -- the rock plus the earth and the gravitational field associated with them. An electron 'Truth' fixation will cause you to miss v in understanding circuits. Most of us have been at this stage at some point in our learning experiences and have scars from that process. There's no need for others to get them.

- " miss the whole picture of what's really important "
what's the whole picture.

 

- " miss the whole picture of what's really important "
what's the whole picture.

That the transmission of electrical energy in circuits is a system where there is a synergy of agents working. That synergy is called
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDDEED00333C1C30E

Notice the requirement for an 'Open Mind'. It's not expected that you understand it all mathematically to design circuits but it is necessary to have a qualitative, logical and correct structure of basic knowledge to build on.

 

At the end of the day, it still comes down to electrons and only electrons. Some speak of ions-- but ions are nothing more than atoms or molecules whose net electron .v. proton balance is not balanced. As such, it comes right back to the only thing that is going to cause the movement-- the electron. You can't change the number of protons or you get a different element, therefore we come back to the number of electrons. Whether it has to drag it's atom or they have to drag their molecule, or the electron hops from one covalent bond to the next from atom to atom, it comes back to the electron. The entire concept of 'charge carrier' was not a physical scientific phenomenon-- it was an educational model to try to help people understand things.

The correct answer to the original post is, and alway will be 'TRUE'.

 

At the end of the day, it still comes down to electrons and only electrons. Some speak of ions-- but ions are nothing more than atoms or molecules whose net electron .v. proton balance is not balanced. As such, it comes right back to the only thing that is going to cause the movement-- the electron. You can't change the number of protons or you get a different element, therefore we come back to the number of electrons. Whether it has to drag it's atom or they have to drag their molecule, or the electron hops from one covalent bond to the next from atom to atom, it comes back to the electron. The entire concept of 'charge carrier' was not a physical scientific phenomenon-- it was an educational model to try to help people understand things.

The correct answer to the original post is, and alway will be 'TRUE'.

And, at the end of the day, it appears that you aren't willing to answer the simple question posed to you in Post #238:

http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/t...poll-and-call-out.125028/page-12#post-1014256

Can't help but wonder why.

 

The correct answer to the original post is, and alway will be 'TRUE'.

NOT.

What's a plasma? A stream of positively charged atoms with no electrons whatsoever. They've all been stripped away. And yet, a plasma can carry a current.

 

The correct answer to the original post is, and alway will be 'TRUE'.

I think we've already answered this assertion as being FALSE.

You can have an isolated proton in the form of a hydrogen nucleus and it is possible to create a material through which protons can flow freely, called a proton conductor. Fuel cells use a Proton exchange membrane like nafion to carry current.

 

NOT.

What's a plasma? A stream of positively charged atoms with no electrons whatsoever. They've all been stripped away. And yet, a plasma can carry a current.

- Reread original post.

 

That the transmission of electrical energy in circuits is a system where there is a synergy of agents working. That synergy is called
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDDEED00333C1C30E

Notice the requirement for an 'Open Mind'. It's not expected that you understand it all mathematically to design circuits but it is necessary to have a qualitative, logical and correct structure of basic knowledge to build on.

- Great.
More work.

 

I think we've already answered this assertion as being FALSE.

You can have an isolated proton in the form of a hydrogen nucleus and it is possible to create a material through which protons can flow freely, called a proton conductor. Fuel cells use a Proton exchange membrane like nafion to carry current.

- " material through which protons can flow freely "
I think you just gave me an idea for a new thread.

 

It is clear that this thread is not, after serious effort, providing the TS with the information he desires if that is indeed possible at all.
Closed pending review. Thanks to all for their efforts.

" material through which protons can flow freely "
I think you just gave me an idea for a new thread.

If you are as unwilling to accept valid answers as you were in this thread, don't bother. It won't last very long.