Not sure which side of the pond your are but I found https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/185232186247 clock oil to be handy for lubrication of small mechanical moving parts

Medium viscosity sounds nice. Sadly it does not ship to Sweden but I'll try to find some alternative!

Like the test done by JHT your not testing solenoid pull but are testing an electromagnet. I'm sorry that saying this upsets you guys but it's true. My ban from posting in this thread that you guys cryed to the mods about was up on 10/19/22

So it's no longer a solenoid if you have a frame made out of steel/iron? You previously said that the steel frame does not improve the pulling force of a solenoid, and did not believe but now after we showed experiments (results and videos) you decided that it's no longer a solenoid?

To clarify, I was not the one who reported you but do you really think you are completely innocent? You've not exactly been the nicest of people in this thread. @LowQCab and @Jerry-Hat-Trick recommend a steel frame, @LowQCab even predicted the improvement:

A proper "Magnetic-Circuit" will produce around ~3-times more Force.

which was close to the improvement I experienced in my testing. @Jerry-Hat-Trick even cut open the frame of one of his solenoids for a test, and reported back that the one who still had the frame was stronger. How did you respond to this?

Did you see the experiment? I didn't either.

You implied that he's lying. Additionally, when I reported back the results of my testing (with videos), what did you do? You decided that it's no longer a solenoid.

With that said, if one were to let the piston inside the solenoid with steel bracket actually come in contact with the other end of the bracket and let it be there, then it only acts as an electromagnet, since the piston is completely stuck inside the bobbin. This is why I made sure not to let the plunger come in contact with the end of the bracket when inserting it into the solenoid during testing, which also doesn't happen when the solenoids are mounted to the V8 engine. I could generate crazy pulling forces by letting the piston touch the bracket, but that would be outside of the "usage-domain" in this case.

But maybe it's all a misunderstanding and we look at the same coin from different sides. That does however not justify this kind of behaviour:

If doing this was actually important to you, you would spend some time reading about solenoids and not watching stuff about them on Youtube

This project is important to me, actually. Just because I don't exclusively follow what you say doesn't mean that I don't care about my engine.

Youtube gives a lot of inspiration, but it's not my only source. If you don't want me to trust videos on youtube, why do you then write this?

@Ephex To prove to you the iron isn't needed outside of the coils have a look at this -

Also look at how he makes his pistons. He reduces most of the diameter of the rod that goes through the coil. Doing this keeps it from getting caught in the magnetic force. The link is to a V4 but he has more of these engines on Youtube.

Your point was obviously to prove that the brackets aren't necessary, but for the billionth time; the question is NOT if they are needed. It has been "do brackets improve the pulling force of solenoids?". Can you understand that it's confusing when you tell me not to look at youtube, but then link to a youtube video and tell me that there's more from where that came from?

The no steel surrounds on the coils is why the other ones of these motors shown on Youtube work so much better. They are using solenoids and not electromagnets.

I'm not sure I understand how you end up with your definitions. Do you think that the motor, in its current state, has 8 "electromagnets" which aren't solenoids? If I were to remove the brackets, is it suddenly 8 solenoids? It may be the case that all solenoids are electromagnets, but all electromagnets aren't solenoids, but I felt like this was accurate:

"In engineering, the term "solenoid" refers not only to the electromagnet but to a complete apparatus providing an actuator that converts electrical energy to mechanical energy." Link

I think the solenoids with a steel bracket fall under this category, no?

Look here to see why I'm right - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnet

You can't just link an entire article and say that you're right. What specific parts in the article are you referring to?

But ok, let's take a look at what wikipedia has to offer.

Under Simple solenoid in the article you linked:

"The maximum pull is increased when a magnetic stop is inserted into the solenoid. The stop becomes a magnet that will attract the plunger; it adds little to the solenoid pull when the plunger is far away but dramatically increases the pull when they are close."

Doesn't this sound like the steel bracket which gets magnetized and then pulls on the plunger?

From Solenoid valve:

"The coil also has an iron frame that provides a low magnetic path resistance."

Interesting.

I appreciate your enthusiasm @shortbus but please channel it in different ways than the unfriendly manner you've done so far.

 

He if you want to call the common way of increasing pull, from your reply:
"The maximum pull is increased when a magnetic stop is inserted into the solenoid." as being the same thing as a steel surround that's fine. From that same paragraph - "it adds little to the solenoid pull when the plunger is far away but dramatically increases the pull when they are close." Doesn't make you right but that's on you and your buddy's.

You keep saying you want a well working engine and when I tell you how to do it you rely on the other two. Is it because there are two of them and one of me?

If you can't tell what pertains to what your doing in a full article that's on you for not understanding.


Yes, many if not most solenoid have a steel outside of some sort. That works out fine for something that doesn't need to release fast. Release fast is what you need. If you look around most of the pull solenoids with a surround also use a spring, to make the release faster. Solenoids on valves in machines or like in automatic transmissions don't have surrounds, because they mus release fast when turned off. The ones with surrounds pull in and then stay that way for more time than fast solenoids. You motor needs fast solenoids.

I'm not sure I understand how you end up with your definitions. Do you think that the motor, in its current state, has 8 "electromagnets" which aren't solenoids? If I were to remove the brackets, is it suddenly 8 solenoids? It may be the case that all solenoids are electromagnets, but all electromagnets aren't solenoids, but I felt like this was accurate:

Again you don't understand what I posted. I said it becomes an electromagnet with both poles when the piston is in it. And by removing the outside brackets your solenoids will release faster, which will allow it to turn smoother and faster. It's not friction you fighting but residual magnetism. Did,t you say it turned smooth and free by hand with no power on it? That should be your clue.

Don't just look at the one motor I linked to on Youtube, but all of them, and all of the DIY plans out there. How many of them use any type of outside steel on the magnets? Not many or even none, at least none I've seen.

;
;
;
;

 

Doesn't make you right but that's on you and your buddy's.

Regarding steel brackets increasing the pulling force of a solenoid? I need clarification here. Do you still not believe the test results from @Jerry-Hat-Trick or from me? I had a solenoid which peaked at pulling 22 g without a bracket, and then 72 g with it (not in contact with the "back end" of the bracket. Seeing the tests from jerry convinced me, and the tests I did on my own strengthened the claim. I mean, I have seen it with my own eyes.

You keep saying you want a well working engine and when I tell you how to do it you rely on the other two. Is it because there are two of them and one of me?

No, it's not about them being 2 and you being alone. I suppose you are only referring to the "bracket"-discussion. It's about the results from all the testing in this thread combined (not just from one person!) that support their claims quite accurately. I chose between those results and you, who said that you have experience in the subject. You might very well have it, but no offence; only saying that you have experience isn't very convincing (especially when faced against test results that contradict your "claims from experience"). There are more topics around the engine other than the bracket and we might very well agree on those instead.

If you can't tell what pertains to what your doing in a full article that's on you for not understanding.

I asked you to point to the specific paragraph that supports your claim in the article you linked. But since I am so stupid, would you mind helping me out instead of blaming me for not knowing what you were referring to? It will help support your claim.

Imagine writing a scientific paper and using a book as a source, but you don't say what you've used. Would it be a reasonable thing to say "if you can't find the things that support my claim regarding the subject, that's your fault"?

Yes, many if not most solenoid have a steel outside of some sort.

Great, so the solenoid stays a solenoid when a bracket is attached, glad we could agree on that atleast. Our testing showed that it made the solenoid stronger, do you agree? Do you believe our results?

That works out fine for something that doesn't need to release fast. Release fast is what you need.

Now THAT is a different question, and indeed an interesting one. Adding a steel bracket might make the solenoid stronger (the claim that we all have discussed for a while in this thread), but make it less suitable in a solenoid engine (or at least need to adapt the timing to consider any slower releases). I will have to do some testing, and maybe even test the motor without brackets. I have a feeling that it will go from a low-rpm high-torque motor (with brackets) to a high-rpm low-torque motor.

The latter sounds more fun imo! The tradeoff is quite interesting. Sacrifice pulling force for enabling it to turn off faster, maybe there's some magical optimal size of the bracket that is big enough to increase the force by a substantional amount without making the solenoid "turn off too slowly".

Again you don't understand what I posted. I said it becomes an electromagnet with both poles when the piston is in it.

I suppose by "when the piston is in it" you mean when the piston is as far into the solenoid as it can go (when the piston is stuck to the lower part of the bracket). I never recorded any pulling forces of the piston being stuck to the bracket, you seemed to claim that I did when you wrote

Like the test done by JHT your not testing solenoid pull but are testing an electromagnet.

In my last post, I wanted to make it very clear that "This is why I made sure not to let the plunger come in contact with the end of the bracket when inserting it into the solenoid during testing, which also doesn't happen when the solenoids are mounted to the V8 engine. ". Can you please answer this; do you acknowledge that this is the case in my testing?

Don't just look at the one motor I linked to on Youtube, but all of them, and all of the DIY plans out there. How many of them use any type of outside steel on the magnets? Not many or even none, at least none I've seen.

I am not disregarding any solenoid engines on youtube. Once again, youtube is a great source for inspiration. I was meerly confused by when you contradicted yourself by first saying

If doing this was actually important to you, you would spend some time reading about solenoids and not watching stuff about them on Youtube.

and then using not only "[...] one motor I linked to on Youtube, but all of them." as a source on information about solenoid engines.


The most interesting thing in this thread right now is the hypothesis:

1. Adding a steel bracket might make the solenoid stronger, but make the solenoid less suitable in a solenoid engine operating at high RPM.

What is everybody's opinions regarding this?

 

When a Coil, which is creating a Magnetic-Field, is abruptly "turned-off",
the Magnetic-Field "collapses".
During the "collapsing" of the Magnetic-Field, the Magnetic-force that is being applied
to any nearby Ferrous-Metal-objects will be temporarily sustained for
an extremely short period of time, even though no Current is being applied to the Coil.

When the Magnetic-Field collapses,
a sometimes very high-Voltage may be generated by the Coil,
this "Voltage-Spike" is what will eventually destroy your Switches.

The second phenomenon that occurs, is dependent on the "Magnetic-Properties" of the
Metallic-Objects which have just previously been under the influence of the
Magnetic-Field generated by the Coil.
Depending upon those particular "Magnetic-Properties",
the Metallic-Objects may retain some of that energy "semi-permanently", and
become a weak "Permanent-Magnet".
This effect can be easily tested with the use of a small "non-magnetized" Screwdriver.
The Screwdriver can be lightly touched to various metal-parts to see if
they have been magnetized by the Coils of the Engine.
If no Magnetic attraction is detected, when the Engine is not running,
then this phenomenon is not occurring, and is a non issue.

If any of the parts show indications of now being Magnetized,
this condition can probably be mitigated somewhat by using
an AC-Voltage, instead of a DC-Voltage, to run the Engine.
I have not tried this,
but if magnetization of parts is determined to be causing a problem,
I believe that experimenting with this idea is worth trying.

Make sure that the Piston can not touch the Steel-Armature surrounding the Coil.
There should be a small gap between the Piston and any other Ferrous-Metal parts, at all times.
.
.
.

 

I'm not going to spend too much more time trying to change the mind of people that already have their minds made up.

The solenoids that have a iron surround on them are holding solenoids. You don't want a holding solenoid for the engine, you want one that pulls and then releases fast. Adding extra magnetism with the bracket won't give much if any extra torque just more friction and slower speed.

The part of that Wiki that pertains to your project is in the very first part, where it shos the cocentration of magnetic field lines in the open core of the coil. That is what you should be concerned with and all that the others doing the same project have found out so that's why they build them with no iron brackets, just a non magnetic bobbin.

I never called you stupid. My goal is to make you see that in life and mechanical things you need to separate what is needed to make things work and let the other stuff go. That's what I was taught very early on and it isn't done so much any more. It's now all about getting a pat on the back and people telling you how great your idea is, even when it's not.

Life isn't a every participant gets trophy sport, never was until lately, and the world shows for it. That is what allows the cults and quanon types hold so much sway over people. that should know better and figure things out for themselves.

 

Life isn't a every participant gets trophy sport, never was until lately, and the world shows for it. That is what allows the cults and quanon types hold so much sway over people. that should know better and figure things out for themselves.

Inspirational.

I am trying so hard to make this a fruitful discussion, but you refuse to answer the things I ask of you to keep us all synchronized. In my last post, I wrote:

Do you still not believe the test results from @Jerry-Hat-Trick or from me?

Our testing showed that it made the solenoid stronger, do you agree? Do you believe our results?

Can you please answer this; do you acknowledge that this is the case in my testing?

I asked you three times if you could explicitly acknowledge the testing results, yet you still don't answer me.

Adding extra magnetism with the bracket won't give much if any extra torque just more friction and slower speed.

It may decrease the max speed (if the residual magnetisism is the culprit) and increase friction, but it does increase torque. The solenoids pull harder on the link arms compared to them not having a steel bracket, which in turn pull on the cranks, which finally applies a torque. An increase in force would increase the torque, no? However, since I still can't assume you acknowledge the testing results, I cannot assume that we both agree that the force will increase with the brackets.

The part of that Wiki that pertains to your project is in the very first part, where it shos the cocentration of magnetic field lines in the open core of the coil. [...]

This part?


It isn't sufficient to prove your point and completely invalidate the testing results in this thread. I currently do not understand why the magnetic return path affects the pulling force, but reality apparently says so.

I never called you stupid.

Never explicitly, no.

It's now all about getting a pat on the back and people telling you how great your idea is, even when it's not.

Noooooooo you have such a twisted view of the situation:

The discussion regarding steel brackets on solenoids in general

1. People recommended steel bracket since it would increase the force of the solenoid.
2. A picture of testing results showed that the solenoid that got its bracket cut was weaker than its intact counterpart.
3. You implicitly deny the results.
4. A video of the test was uploaded.
5. I released a head-to-head comparison of a solenoid with a bracket vs without, showing that it was stronger even without the plunger even touching the bottom.
6. You send a link to a wikipedia article with "this is why I'm right", later pointing to the picture of the magnetic path in a solenoid which does not disprove the results.

After all this, I am not convinced by your argumentation. Is this unreasonable? Your reactions to me not believing you:

1. " Is it because there are two of them and one of me? "
2. " It's now all about getting a pat on the back and people telling you how great your idea is, even when it's not. "

I'm not going to spend too much more time trying to change the mind of people that already have their minds made up.

I do have made my mind up about brackets increasing the pulling force of solenoids (even when the piston is not stuck inside it), but that is based on the testing! I have seen it with my own eyes, recorded it and uploaded it here. However, hopefully, you would have noticed my opinion not yet being solidified regarding how suitable steel brackets are around solenoids in a solenoid engine.

It's a shame, I tried to ensure that we could agree on the fact that no-bracket solenoids in solenoid engines have their pros, and that it might even be a better idea to remove the brackets even if they increase the pulling force of the individual solenoids. But it just ends up with "you have made your mind up, I'm not going to waste my time".

Honestly, I have lost my patience. It's impossible to have a solid discussion. I'm also tired of your passive-aggressiveness and petty commenting. At this point, it would indeed be the best for this thread if you just stopped posting. Thanks again for your enthusiasm but it is no longer needed here.

 

I have answered these questions -
Do you still not believe the test results from @Jerry-Hat-Trick or from me?
Our testing showed that it made the solenoid stronger, do you agree? Do you believe our results?
Can you please answer this; do you acknowledge that this is the case in my testing?

But it wasn't the answer you wanted. your test and JHT's test was from what is saw a "holding" test, and I also said holding isn't what you project needs. When you put the core into a electromechanical solenoid it makes an electromagnet the added iron around the outside of the coil adds to the holding power. It does not add to the pull in power Pull in is all you SHOULD be looking for, not HOLDING.

LIQ and I have a history, and JHT seems to want to go along with him. Not just in this thread but others too. LQ told me in another thread to stop disagreeing with him, but as long as he gives bad unreliable information to people and I see it, I'm going to call it out. This site should be about, and used to be about real information, not the things that someone thinks should be true.

 

ShortBus said,
"" LIQ and I have a history, ............ ""
No, "we" don't have a "history", you do.
And it's getting really old.

"" LQ told me in another thread to stop disagreeing with him, ............ ""
I've never done any such thing, and I would not, and have not,
said anything even remotely close to this, to anyone, ever.
Where's the quote ?????

I like it when people disagree with me,
provided that they are willing to discuss the reasons why, in detail,
and provided that both parties are willing to change their viewpoint.
Everything that I know is subject to change or improvement, absolutely everything, always.

"" ......... but as long as he gives bad unreliable information to people and I see it, I'm going to call it out. ""
If I'm not sure of a particular point, I keep my mouth shut.
I make very few mistakes because I question myself continuously.
I even learn from my mistakes before I make them sometimes.
I think that every mistake is just another opportunity to learn,
but a certain percentage of the population are stuck on believing that they never make mistakes.
I always laugh when I realize I've made a mistake, because it's so unusual that it's always surprising.

There's always another different and unique angle for approaching a particular problem,
I want to know every possible angle or method.

"" This site should be about,
and used to be about,
real information,
not the things that someone thinks should be true. ""

So ....... ShortBus ..........
Am I the one who has changed what this site should be about ?, or are there others as well ?
Is everybody else that contributes to this site just a bunch of clueless-Clowns ?
Are You the only one here who actually knows what is true and accurate ?

I'm here because I want to be surrounded by people I can learn from,
who are, hopefully, smarter than me.

I could point-out many obvious flaws in some of your posts,
but I'm not interested in "making You wrong" in any way.
The person reading the information has a Brain,
and can make up their own mind as to which ideas make the most sense to them,
and they can try both ideas, or even many different ways, of accomplishing their end goal.
There's seldom only one single way to solve a particular problem.

I have nothing to prove,
only an interest in improving things or situations, including myself.
I sincerely wish that You would adopt that same viewpoint.
I believe that everyone would appreciate the gesture.
.
.
.

 

The discussion about solenoids becoming stronger with brackets detached from the engine-discussion. I think the discussion moved to solenoids generally speaking. The great misconception must have been that shortbus never let go of the question "how suitable are brackets for solenoids used in solenoid engines", while others were speaking about solenoids on their own.

I am going to sum up this thread now since we are only going in circles. It has also become a drama-machine.

Solenoids do become stronger if a iron/steel bracket is mounted around it, but they might become less suitable in a solenoid engine.

This sentence holds from both sides of the argument in this thread. The first half of that sentence is the claim of one side, and the latter half is the claim of the other side. This is how I view the whole situation atleast.

Here's what's going to happen next:

I am going to

1. try to adjust the timing of the switches with the current setup to see if it improves the performance.
2. lubricate the engine.
3. test with no brackets mounted.

My prediction is that the engine will run at a faster rpm with no brackets, but the torque will be decreased.

You have all been helpful but if you guys want to clear out some personal drama/history, please do that in the DMs.

 

Here's some news.

I adjusted the switches a bit and lubricated every joint with sewing machine oil and it ran amazingly well. That was when it was by far performing the best. I was even able to control the rpm and reach quite low speeds. Here's a video of it

Today, I decided to try the engine without the steel brackets. It turns out that it wasn't even able to run at all, even at the max voltage (37 V) but when I had the brackets on, it was able to keep a low rpm "idle" at ~28 V. Even though I partially disassembled the motor and reassembled it, the friction remained the same so there's nothing wrong with the mechanical aspect of it. I even laser-cut 3 mm spacers out of acrylic that would replace the brackets so that the solenoids would still be positioned correctly.
There's a possibility that this has only been the case in my project, but the steel brackets made an incredible difference even when used in the engine. It might be the case that a sufficiently high voltage would be able to make the engine run without steel brackets and that an eventual speed limiting factor (from the steel) could be avoided, enabling the engine to reach incredible rpm:s. However, running at higher voltages than 37 V would only be possible for short periods of time since the solenoids already get hot if I run the thing for an extended period of time. Minimizing friction even more would probably help it a lot too!

Sadly, after hours (in total) of testing with the motor, one of the joints in the crank shaft got loose. I tried to fix it, but it only ended up making the problem worse. As it looks right now, it will retire and rest on my desk as the coolest decoration I have.

Thanks everybody for helping out! This has been an incredible learning experience. Some time in the future, there will definitely be a version 2!

 

Version-2 needs Electronic-Switching ..........
.
.
.

 

Version-2 needs Electronic-Switching ..........

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