it ends up doing it by the right. So....

Has this computer game free will?

If your answer is "no"... why not?

No, but you have the choice to continue playing.

 

No, but you have the choice to continue playing.

And how do you make that choice?

Perhaps you evaluate certain "variables", like: the time you have left to spare, what you could be doing instead, maybe also the pain/pleasure of having another game, etc, etc, etc...

.... or is it something else?

As I said before, I don't really know if we have true free will; but from where I'm standing right now it seems quite likely that our nature, experiences and circumstances are what determine our choices. Change the "variables" that those provide, and our "choices" will change accordingly.

 

You are talking out both sides of your mouth.

Basically you are saying that you have no choice in what you do, yet by spreading ideas you hope to impact the choices others make. Do you see how absurd that is? Do you really believe that you can influence the actions of others but you have zero control over your own.

If there is free will, then you can blame him for erring. But if there isn't, you can't. What he will defend, what you're going to oppose, are all programmed. But who knows, who knows that we are programmed to tackle this topic?

Actually this topic's not going to anywhere. We can't prove, right now.

 

Actually this topic's not going to anywhere. We can't prove, right now.

Well, of course it's going nowhere...

This exact same topic has been discussed by philosophers, scientists, theologians, legislators, and people from all walks of life for over 2000 years. I would be really surprised if we were able to finally crack the mystery.

From by part this thread already well served its purpose; as I enjoy discussing this type of subjects. Whether anyone is convinced by my arguments is irrelevant. So, thanks for bringing it up.

If there is free will, then you can blame him for erring. But if there isn't, you can't. What he will defend, what you're going to oppose, are all programmed.

If I may add a final thought.... the reason I believe free will is an illusion is due to just one single person; someone whose arguments I found so convincing that changed me forever.

So, did I really "choose" to believe there is no free will; or did this person provide me with the right information for me to have no choice but to reach that conclusion?

 

Free will is an illusion that suits a certain type of human pysche....

The fact that I have written this post means that it now exists. Because that is now true, and will always be true in the future, it was always going to be true in the past as well.
This is where it appears (along with everything else) on our own linear space/timeline, within this particular universe. In it's allotted place.

This post, at this time, has always been going to happen - right from the moment of the 'big bang' onwards.
Nothing I, or anyone, or anything else could have done about it.
No free will involved.....there's no such thing..it's just a human illusion...

 

Free will is an illusion that suits a certain type of human pysche....

The fact that I have written this post means that it now exists. Because that is now true, and will always be true in the future, it was always going to be true in the past as well.
This is where it appears (along with everything else) on our own linear space/timeline, within this particular universe. In it's allotted place.

This post, at this time, has always been going to happen - right from the moment of the 'big bang' onwards.
Nothing I, or anyone, or anything else could have done about it.
No free will involved.....there's no such thing..it's just a human illusion...

If that is truly what you believe, then do the following: Go out to the edge of a busy street and step in the path of the next oncoming bus or large truck. Or go lay down on a set of train tracks. After all, doing so has absolutely no effect on what is going to happen since whatever happens was destined to happen no matter what you choose to do.

 

That's not a valid test, because we don't know what was meant to happen in the first place.

If we knew what's meant to happen in the future, then we would know for sure if free will exists.

 

I'm not saying that it's a test. I'm saying that if someone truly believes that everything that happens is preordained, then they should have absolutely no hesitation doing so.

Similarly, when they are out for a walk, why look both ways before crossing a busy street. Just cross the street. The only point in looking both ways would be if it is going to affect your choice. If you have no choice, why look? Just cross. If you weren't destined to get smeared, then you won't. If you were, then there's nothing you could have done about it anyway.

 

Because they were always meant to act that way -as rogs say, from the beginning of time-: to use the "variables" that they gather from each situation, and analyze them based on their nature and previous experiences; and of course, always measuring pain against pleasure.

We can't stop doing that, even if we wanted to; because even the sole act of trying to do it, would be doing it.

 

What is: making a choice?

Is it not an evaluation based on:
1 - our personal preferences [nature]
2 - any previous events that we could relate to [life experiences]
3 - the circumstances of each particular situation [the environment]

So, if we went back in time to the same situation, just before making the choice, how could the result be any different when all the "variables" are the same?

Therefore, if the result of our "choices" was always meant to be the same, how can there be free will?

 

What is: making a choice?

Is it not an evaluation based on:
1 - our personal preferences [nature]
2 - any previous events that we could relate to [life experiences]
3 - the circumstances of each particular situation [the environment]

So, if we went back in time to the same situation, just before making the choice, how could the result be any different when all the "variables" are the same?

Therefore, if the result of our "choices" was always meant to be the same, how can there be free will?

You are assuming that the same variables can only lead to the exact same choice. You have no basis for that assumption. Now, I'm willing to admit that I have no basis for the assumption that living creatures, even faced with the same variables in the same states, have the capacity to choose from among a wide selection of options available to them.

There is no way to prove either assertion. If I were to show you a long list of situations in which someone (or some animal) found itself in essentially the same situation but took a variety of actions, you would just point out that the situations were only "essentially" the same. If I then found studies in which they went to great effort to make the situations identical, you would just point out that there are millions of variables, such as the exact odor that was present or the exact amount of light that was making it to the brain if, for no other reason, than the eyes were blinking at slightly different times relative to when the information was being taking in and processed.

I guess it really comes down to this: If you want to believe that you are incapable of thinking and that you have no say in choosing to believe that you have no say in controlling the actions you take, then fine.

Now, if someone comes up and robs you and beats you to a pulp and murders the person you are with, are you going to take the attitude that they had no choice in the matter and that you don't care whether they are arrested or not or stand trial or not because it was all preordained that this person commit this act even before the big bang happened?

Conversely, I'm assuming that you will just accept that it was preordained that I don't take that attitude towards you should you get drunk and smash into me and the person I am with and try to claim that you had no choice.

Personally, I choose to reject that as nothing more than ultimate victim excuse philosophy. And, yes, I CHOOSE to reject it. Now, you can claim all day long that I had no actual say in the matter and neither of us can prove the other wrong (or right).

 

And, yes, I CHOOSE to reject it. Now, you can claim all day long that I had no actual say in the matter and neither of us can prove the other wrong (or right).

It's like the radio talk show Host, it's who ever wants to have the last word. Otherwise, it's "Trolling"

My reality is based on the votes. I'm not alone in my reality and with that said, 12 to 3 say's my thinking is correct which is better odds than a coin toss.

 

So if you ran across a poll that in which the moon being made out of green cheese won 12-3, you'd conclude that the moon being made out of green cheese is correct?

 

So if you ran across a poll that in which the moon being made out of green cheese won 12-3, you'd conclude that the moon being made out of green cheese is correct?

Green stinky cheese

My current reality say's it's green cheese. It only shows individual thought processes in one group over another and to me and my reality, just seems to be on average higher, maybe from a social point of view seems more believable. Doesn't say it is but, it's your choice to say it is or not.

My choices will change over time as well. (Yes, variables)

Edit: Oh, and poor choice of words, when I said I was (Correct) should have been feel correct.

 

My reality is based on the votes. I'm not alone in my reality and with that said, 12 to 3 say's my thinking is correct which is better odds than a coin toss.

You miss the point.... the votes are 12 to 3 because that's what they are at this point in time. Can't or couldn't be anything else.

And regarding W. Bahn's invitation to lie on the train tracks. I hope I shan't be doing that anytime soon. But if I do, then that's what I'll do...if that kind of suicidal tendency overwhelms me - as it has other folk in the past -- then that's the way I shall end my days.
I won't have any choice in the matter...

 

You miss the point.... the votes are 12 to 3 because that's what they are at this point in time. Can't or couldn't be anything else.

You really shouldn't quote WBan from your own words but that's your choice to do so.

I didn't miss the point, you did. I said, my current reality and also said it may change over time.

What part did I miss? Paraphrasing won't make your point of view true.

This is actually what I said….to be exact.

Green stinky cheese

My current reality say's it's green cheese. It only shows individual thought processes in one group over another and to me and my reality, just seems to be on average higher, maybe from a social point of view seems more believable. Doesn't say it is but, it's your choice to say it is or not.

My choices will change over time as well. (Yes, variables)

Edit: Oh, and poor choice of words, when I said I was (Correct) should have been feel correct.

 

You really shouldn't quote WBan from your own words but that's your choice to do so.

I didn't miss the point, you did. I said, my current reality and also said it may change over time.

What part did I miss? Paraphrasing won't make your point of view true.

This is actually what I said….to be exact.

Sometimes I think your reality is driven primarily by the quality of the stuff you're smoking.

 

I didn't miss the point, you did. I said, my current reality and also said it may change over time.

There is no such thing as 'your current reality'.
There is just reality. That's where we all are, at present.

And none of us can be anywhere else......

 

There is no such thing as 'your current reality'.
There is just reality. That's where we all are, at present.

And none of us can be anywhere else......

Depends on the quality of the drugs -- and all indications are the kV has some REALLY good ones!

 

Sometimes I think your reality is driven primarily by the quality of the stuff you're smoking.

Quality of Drink. Right now I'm smoking this thread that has no end