?

 

My electric rate is less than half your rate.

Point is, all these prices are in constant flux and vary with market conditions. You have to be careful drawing conclusions from such noisy data.

 

Electric $25.21
Propane $23.27
Fuel Oil $21.69
Coal $12.90
Wood $6.1
Natural Gas $5.80

the order is generally right. For me, electric is the most expensive, followed by fuel, propane/lpg, wood and natural gas.

that order is likely true in most places, with the exception that wood may be the least expensive means in less developed countries.

 

Wood @ $1.41 per cubic foot is...6.1(cubic feet)*$1.00=$8.60

There is 128 cubic feet in one cord of fire wood.

seasoned firewood is $375/cord delivered + stacked for me, down from last year ($425/cord).

 

heating bills can be significant for some. I have had $1000/month during some of the coldest winters.

 

Living in a 3rd world country, I have to write this message sitting in front of my wood burning stove, rather cozy if you ask me.

Looking at the blue ghosty flames seemingly rising out of no where. You have to admire mother nature for such beautiful things.

 

Yeah that wood is the way to go. I had lots of friends switch to wood heat. It used to be a fade.

They would go out and buy a nice efficient wood stove. Then they would have to make room for it somewhere. And of course the proper base, close wall protection and an approved chimney, with the required hole in the roof.

After everything gets installed and working properly.................sooner or later......for some reason.... the wood supplier is gouging you. Surely you can get your own wood for a lot less money.

All you need is an old pickup. and a chainsaw. sharpener. oil&gas. and a wood permit. And then so as not to make a mess and noise at home.......you buy a towable wood splitter so when you get home....all you have to do is unload. One cord.

Yes sir.....with a little spare time........you can sure cut those utility bills.

 

In fact the saw mill I work for we sell whats called slab wood bundles and one of those is over a cord of wood for $5.

I have seen various stoves and gasifiers using saw dust. tempted to try if I had access to welding equipment.

dannyf where do you live?

a high cost of living area in a 3rd world country.

and a chainsaw.

not terribly economical: I have taken down 3 trees at the cost of $3K+, and I had one of the trees split up for me for firewood. Not worth it for me, vs. having the seasoned wood delivered

 

Hey Ripplenwinder.........quit taking comments as personal criticisms. I've known people that use wood heat for decades. And I've seen of lot more people go back to grid power within two yrs. or so. That's all.

Different strokes, etc.

 

You don't need a permit in Indiana, I produced enough wood for 2 years plus sold 10 cords in 60 hours of work last spring. We are talking about 35 cord in 60 hours work??? Ok so even if I sell a cord a dirt cheap price of $128, that means I can make about $75 an hour. In one year I have paid for the vehicle, 6 chain saws, splitting mauls, wood stove, etc. Cyclic rate of a hydraulic log splitter is about 10 seconds or more vs cyclic rate of man who has split over 80 cords of wood 2-3 seconds. Not only that is you use a log splitter then you need to skid some logs from the woods because it is hard to get a log splitter into the woods and your log splitter needs to be a ventricle one. However man who is good with axe goes into woods and impresses all bystanders with his ability to split 3-4 times the amount of wood then the 2 man crew on hydraulic log splitter. Ya the lot where I work has 150 cord or more of firewood that they sell for $225 a cord, they can prepare over 1000 bundles of firewood a day that they sell for $3-4 dollars , and it takes them a crew of 3-4 people. What do you think I do all day every day make lumber and firewood or something? But maybe what I am talking about is not for everyone because I learned to work hard and be self governing even if means making less and being poor, however the working hard and being self governing things is working in my favor, other wise I wouldn't encourage other to give it a try.

Hmm, I get up in the morning and push this little button with an up arrow on it and I get warm. Do the opposite at night.
Works good.
You should get together with @tcmtech He has a similar strategy about life.

 

Let me ask you an honest question; do you think this post is garbage and that it should be deleted because of my great error and fallacies?

Not at all. It's in the off-topic area and at least as valid as other topics here. I haven't checked your work, so I can't say if there was an error or fallacy.

My only point was that a snapshot survey, while interesting, is not usually actionable. You can't use it for answering questions like, "Should I install a wood-burning furnace?" or, "Should I choose gas or electric heating?", or "Will a solar roof lower my bills?" To answer those questions, you need to have models of both your energy consumption during the year, and the fuel prices.

Sure, some things are no-brainers. I just stayed with relatives in a home next to Shawnee National Forest. Wood is free, other than the cost of moving the wood around. Other utilities are priced higher than I pay. He just installed a massive wood-burning furnace. No-brainer.

 

This is the one things I dislike about forms is there are a lot of people who troll around for the purpose or finding a new source to Cristie.

Welcome to the internet and discussion forums, where people discuss things. If you want a venue where you put out the information you want and then don't have to put up with people discussing your words of wisdom, then set yourself up a blog and don't allow comments.

Let me ask you an honest question; do you think this post is garbage and that it should be deleted because of my great error and fallacies?

Not at all. You provided enough detail so that people can adjust the calculations for their situation fairly easily without having to look up conversion factors (assuming they are willing to accept yours at face value).

You should welcome the additional input, particularly things such as prices of various fuels in various places. That helps to flesh out the range of reasonable prices about the numbers you used. Don't take them as personal affronts to what you presented.

Also don't get offended when people mention other considerations that they have to take into account since other people may also have to take them into account. The choice of heating method is not just based on the cost of the fuel. You also need to consider the capital cost to switch to a new heating method, the expected life expectancy of the system, and also the annualized cost of maintaining the system over its life. Mentioning that those factors need to be considered is not a criticism of the work you presented, just a recognition that the work is not the end-all, be-all and that people need to look into these other factors before making a decision for themselves.

 

Cost of energy?

.........................................................................................
WOOD
.....................................................................................
Ash firewood is 164,062 BTUs per cubic foot
1,000,000/164,062= 6.1 cubic feet per MBTU

Wood @ $1.00 per cubic foot is...6.1(cubic feet)*$1.00=$6.10
Wood @ $1.41 per cubic foot is...6.1(cubic feet)*$1.00=$8.60

There is 128 cubic feet in one cord of fire wood. So I am comparing $128 a cord vs. $180 a cord.

Not all cords are created equal. For stacked wood a cord contains a lot of air (about 1/3 of the total volume). That BTU figure is almost certainly based on cubic feet of actual wood. A cord of stacked wood typically contains about 85 cubic feet of firewood.

 

I produced enough wood for 2 years plus sold 10 cords in 60 hours of work last spring. We are talking about 35 cord in 60 hours work???

Must be nice. I certainly can't do that here. My lot is heavily wooded (by about a factor of two from what the Forestry Service recommends but it is extremely steeply sloped (more than 45° over much of the property) so just walking around it a slow process. The summer before last I brought down and cut up enough deadfall to get us handily through the heating season which, for us, required something on the order of six cords. That had be out there working about six hours a day (with frequent breaks) usually seven days a week for about six weeks. So call it something in the range of 200 to 250 hours for just six cords of wood. Most of that time was spend hauling the timber, by hand, a couple hundred yards from where it was cut down to where I could get my truck to it. Then there is the time of loading and unloading the truck. I also lack the tools to do any of this very efficiently -- in fact the only tools I have are an 18" chainsaw (and I went through four chains that summer, which is acceptable, and right at one gallon of gas/oil mix) and a small, electric log splitter that has a very slow cycle time.

At my chargeout that means that I am potentially giving up something between $20,000 and $30,000 to get that six cords of wood (plus about $100 in actual supplies, assuming I buy new chains and don't sharpen the used ones). Delivered wood here is about $200 to $400 per cord (largely depending on if they have ever seen how hard it is to get to where we are) and so, from a basic economic viewpoint, I am absolutely insane to do it myself. But there are other factors. First, I prefer not to go out and seek consulting contracts during that time and enjoy getting a month or two of mostly unconnected downtime, so the potential income is pretty nebulous, though this year I didn't cut any wood precisely because I didn't have time due to a consulting gig. Second, we need to clear out about half the trees on the lot and I estimate that it will take about fifteen to twenty years if we just harvest our own firewood from it. Third, it is good exercise for me, something that I don't get enough of as it is. Fourth, it's largely enjoyable (but that may not be the answer you get when I am in the middle of doing it) and very satisfying once I am done. Finally, starting this next summer, my daughter is going to be helping me and that should make for some good father/daughter time and memories.

 

Do you spend more time getting to know people and nurturing relationships on this form then learning about electronics or other random weirdness?

I'd have to say that my primary purpose is split between learning things and helping others learn things. I can't honestly say that a high goal for me is to get to know people or nurture relationships -- I much prefer to focus that effort on family and physical friends.

 

I understand about the slops. Are you familiar with what a cable skidder is?

I use a "jig" that is a wood base that has four wood arms per side that forms a U shape, you can fill it up with the tree tops dead fall and other things that is normally hard to cut with a chainsaw, then you can cut every 16", 18" or whatever size you like down the jig. It makes it so you can cut a lot of things at once. The one I use has wheels and holds about 54 cubic feet I think? It takes about 15-30 to load and cut. The volume you remove after cutting is about 2/3 the volume of the jig.

Also is your woods hardwood or softwood? The reason I ask is have you ever though about having a logging company purchase some timber from you?

I don't think you could use a cable skidder on our lot -- even if it weren't for the steep slope, the fact that we want to keep the lot well-treed would make it hard to do. I do have a winch on the Beast (my pickup truck) and have used it for a couple of operations, but on most of the lot it is just not practical.

Our stuff is all pine -- Douglas fir and Ponderosa pine.

I've got a couple of jigs that I set up on the driveway, but moving any kind of sizeable jig to where the trees were felled is too cumbersome, even if it were disassembled and reassembled. I've given thought to several possibilities, but what I have found works best (so far) is a simple stick with notches cut at 18" intervals. That allows me to cut off logs of different sizes depending on the size and density of the tree. When possible, I then try to roll them down to the lower road and pick them up with the Beast. One year I hauled a bunch of slash into the garage and used a chop saw to cut it down to size for kindling, but I concluded that that was more hassle than it was worth, especially after I discovered that using a chainsaw as a rip saw on the largest logs produced copious amounts of shredded shavings that makes excellent firestarter that can go straight to full-size split logs directly. I produced an entire season's worth of shavings in a couple of hours. So now I don't mess with the slash and just pile it up at one of the designated spots where the HOA pays to have someone bring in a chipper once a year.

 

But maybe what I am talking about is not for everyone

i think you have to reliaze the best choices for you may not be the best options for others, and vice versa. the lowest cost of energy for you may be the most uneconomical energy for others - and what's economical for you today may not be economical for you tomorrow.

or sometimes we don't go with the lowest cost options for a variety of reasons.

it is helpful to present your method of analysis and potentially shine a light on things that other people may not have thought of. so to me, the rank ordering of energy sources is far more interesting / helpful than the specific costs of such energy sources.