It's not that I'm not willing, it's that a company paid for the development work. So far, they haven't come out with a commercial product; that isn't to say the research and work doesn't still belong to them.

What I will say is this; others have already posted the issues with using a glow plug; the current required is just too high to be useful (I was actually in talks with a manufacturer of these things to make a custom one that would run off my power supply; that was a dead-end, costs too high). The other issue, again, as already stated is, there is a time lag with any "heated" arrangement. On top of that, what drove the development of this product in the first place is, in many cities, the Fire Marshall has to be told of ANY device that uses "pyrotechnics" as part of the device, and must be approved by them ahead of time. The laws are now such that you have to have a pyro license to use squib's, "rocket ignitors", etc.

I'll throw out the "key" component I settled on; what you do or how you use it only depends on your own imagination. Some may scratch their heads, for some the light bulb will go on... It's about as simple as "popping a balloon with a pin"...

A "micro" servo... https://www.amazon.com/TowerPro-SG9...F8&qid=1512764611&sr=8-7&keywords=micro+servo

MT

 

Lol my first thought lol. But the op wanted to try a glow plug so I made something up for him that would work just I still remember starting my plane cox glow plug and all it killed 2 d batteries fast they where in parallel

 

It's not that I'm not willing, it's that a company paid for the development work. So far, they haven't come out with a commercial product; that isn't to say the research and work doesn't still belong to them.

What I will say is this; others have already posted the issues with using a glow plug; the current required is just too high to be useful (I was actually in talks with a manufacturer of these things to make a custom one that would run off my power supply; that was a dead-end, costs too high). The other issue, again, as already stated is, there is a time lag with any "heated" arrangement. On top of that, what drove the development of this product in the first place is, in many cities, the Fire Marshall has to be told of ANY device that uses "pyrotechnics" as part of the device, and must be approved by them ahead of time. The laws are now such that you have to have a pyro license to use squib's, "rocket ignitors", etc.

I'll throw out the "key" component I settled on; what you do or how you use it only depends on your own imagination. Some may scratch their heads, for some the light bulb will go on... It's about as simple as "popping a balloon with a pin"...

A "micro" servo... https://www.amazon.com/TowerPro-SG9...F8&qid=1512764611&sr=8-7&keywords=micro+servo

MT

Cool, obviously I respect you for not giving away ideas that someone else has paid for. Thanks for sharing what you could!

 

Three times in my life (don't know how I got so lucky...) I've seen D-cells blow up.

Once was when I was a kid camping, another DB threw a carbon battery in the fire. The resulting mess was NOT. FUNNY. The counselor had a beard; the stuff hit him square on and burned his beard to the skin. Many people were burnt, nasty business...

The second time was when a guy in the building next to ours "wanted a bit more current" and paralleled alkaline D-cells. He needed more than a "bit" more current; the resulting explosion made them shut down the block temporarily.

Then, I walked in the "tech" room at a rather big company, only to see a guy soldering wires to the tops of batteries. I freaked out and starting yelling for him to stop; he went on anyway. I'll admit, I was being a snitch and ran off to find my boss. It was too late, the guy managed to heat the top of the battery enough to make the safety membrane vent without exploding. He was gone a week later...

It's not that one "can't" do it; it's just a really bad idea. Batteries, even if packaged together, may not have come from the same run. As such, even slight differences will force the current to be shared differently among them. If the circuit is designed to take this into account, have at. Otherwise, switching power supplies to the rescue!

Mike Tripoli



I've also seen a guy hook up a car battery backwards once when jump starting another car, but I digress...

 

the easiest way, in my experience, would be a reeeeelly short piece (like maybe 4 to 6mm) of 40 awg nichrome wire. i've done extensive experimenting with it and it will take way less energy than a glowplug or anything mechanical and it will last dozens of times at least, if you don't overdo the current. i use nichrome 80 wire from jacob's online: http://www.jacobs-online.biz/index.htm
look at http://www.jacobs-online.biz/nichrome/NichromeCalc.html
drill 2 reeeeeelly tiny holes in your pcb and make a small arc of wire between the 2 holes. place it against the balloon surface. when it gets hot enough to make a dull glow, it will expand a bit against the latex and pop there ya go.
use a N fet with maybe a 10 ohm gate resistor. set up a low frequency PWM, at least 20Hz or so, on the output pin, with like a 40% duty cycle. my guess is it'll work on less than half an amp in less than 1 second.
soldering nichrome is a problem though unless you have the right kind of flux. i use this stuff from some guy in Russia: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Solder-Flux-F38H-for-soldering-nichrome-beryl-bronze-stainless-steel-30ml/332204604684?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
it works like a charm with regular 63/37 solder.
make sure, though, that you experiment with extra low temperature, like 10% duty cycle, and work your way up, because the filament won't last long if you overheat it.

 

the easiest way, in my experience, would be a reeeeelly short piece (like maybe 4 to 6mm) of 40 awg nichrome wire. i've done extensive experimenting with it and it will take way less energy than a glowplug or anything mechanical and it will last dozens of times at least, if you don't overdo the current. i use nichrome 80 wire from jacob's online: http://www.jacobs-online.biz/index.htm
look at http://www.jacobs-online.biz/nichrome/NichromeCalc.html
drill 2 reeeeeelly tiny holes in your pcb and make a small arc of wire between the 2 holes. place it against the balloon surface. when it gets hot enough to make a dull glow, it will expand a bit against the latex and pop there ya go.
use a N fet with maybe a 10 ohm gate resistor. set up a low frequency PWM, at least 20Hz or so, on the output pin, with like a 40% duty cycle. my guess is it'll work on less than half an amp in less than 1 second.
soldering nichrome is a problem though unless you have the right kind of flux. i use this stuff from some guy in Russia: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Solder-Flux-F38H-for-soldering-nichrome-beryl-bronze-stainless-steel-30ml/332204604684?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
it works like a charm with regular 63/37 solder.
make sure, though, that you experiment with extra low temperature, like 10% duty cycle, and work your way up, because the filament won't last long if you overheat it.

I'm going to skip over all the "way less energy than a glowplug or anything mechanical " as you post no actual measurements to back that up, so it's a non-fact."Mechanical", in this implementation, takes far less power. I'll explain...

The way you describe is exactly the way it has been done for 50 years. There have been numerous products available from Chinese as well as Australian companies that use this method, both wired and wireless. These products show up every 5 years or so with great ad campaigns, then, when it's realized few people actually have the need for this, drop it. It has numerous issues with it, not withstanding a.) fire starting potential and 2.) "time delay". The biggest, non-starter for anyone wishing to do this as anything more than a basement built "one off" is to check all the laws and regulations regarding anything that gets hot used in this method. I hate repeating myself; the Federal laws in the USA changed that one cannot simply stick a fire causing anything to anything. Take it up with the Fire Marshall.

I'm not saying by any means that my method is the only way to do this. All I'm saying is a company paid me for over a year to exhaust every method of doing this; at one point I was investigating using MOSFETS and BJT's, purposely shorting them out so they got pissing hot. No flame, but takes a long time. I designed "high voltage arc generators" to puncture the latex. I had "spinning pager motors with blades"... Maybe I didn't think of everything, but I decided to quite all the R&D and go with a micro servo once it was suggested that we use a blue laser (someone had seen it on YouTube and thought it a good idea. For a consumer product. Yeah...).

What I am saying is with almost any microcontroller board out there, many with Bluetooth, WiFi, etc., plus all the "dedicated" RF modules (900MHz. which is what I used) one can literally plug a servo into one of these boards, receive the "go" command anyway you want to activate the servo. The servo has a horn with an "X-acto" blade attached to the end of it. You position the servo such that all it literally has to do is swing out and back, as fast as you'd like. With the system just described, there was no perceptible time delay between pushing the button and having the balloon pop. In my case, I had the servo powered through a +5VDC LDO with an enable. So the whole thing only draws "standby current" for the PIC (which is what I used). I "woke up" the RF receiver every second and checked for codes in the air. When the time came, I enabled the LDO, powering the servo (this keeps the servo from drawing current when it's not needed), made the arm swing, balloon popped, done. The whole thing can be built using parts from places like Sparkfun (I've never purchased anything from them, but they have all you need).It's an afternoon's work, at best. And it all ran from a 9V battery...

 

These products show up every 5 years or so with great ad campaigns, then, when it's realized few people actually have the need for this, drop it.

not true. here are some products that are currently available

https://www.amazon.in/Generic-Flameless-Cigarette-Lighter-Charging/dp/B0731LB1XK
https://www.amazon.com/Ckeyin174-Wristwatch-Collectable-Electronic-Rechargeable/dp/B01074KQE8?th=1

but yeah you have a good point. when i said mechanical, i hadn't thought of the method you describe. my bad.
as for the fire marshall, you're right, i didn't think of that either. i gave him a quick, easy, simple, way cheaper, and perfectly safe solution. yes, we do have laws and people writing these laws who can't think of everything. and yes there are reeeeelly stupid people who have such infantile blind faith in those laws that they literally are incapable of believing what thier own eyes tell them if it conflicts with what the law says. that's unfortunate. but obviously the OP isn't one of them. he understands what i described and if anyone on earth thinks he can claim any kind of hazard whatsoever from my method he's quite welcome to make my day. go 'head, just try an tell me how there could be any remotely conceivable possibility of starting a fire this way. yeah, if he's designing a commercial product, he has to follow federal law. but that most emphatically does NOT, and NEVER WILL, MAKE IT RIGHT, INTELLIGENT, OR TANGIBLY JUSTIFIABLE IN ANY WAY.
and how is it that glow plugs (easy fire starter) can be legal, and a piece of nichrome wire (you know, the kind that's used in countless commercial products like toasters, heaters and cigarette lighters, including the commercial product that i'm currently designing) is not? unless i'm mistaken, they are both equally and obviously incapable of starting a fire with a latex balloon.
as for your ad campaigns, i can think of one person who clearly has a need for this, the OP. it's way cheaper and simpler than a servo.
and he's not asking for a scientifically peer reviewed study, he's asking for a solution to a problem. i gave him a perfectly good one. and i couldn't care less if anybody doesn't believe what i said. i'm speaking out of extensive personal experience, and i'm sharing that experience. nuf said.
no i don't know as much as you do about this. but that does not necessarily mean that my solution isn't valid or legal.

 

not true. here are some products that are currently available

https://www.amazon.in/Generic-Flameless-Cigarette-Lighter-Charging/dp/B0731LB1XK
https://www.amazon.com/Ckeyin174-Wristwatch-Collectable-Electronic-Rechargeable/dp/B01074KQE8?th=1

but yeah you have a good point. when i said mechanical, i hadn't thought of the method you describe. my bad.
as for the fire marshall, you're right, i didn't think of that either. i gave him a quick, easy, simple, way cheaper, and perfectly safe solution. yes, we do have laws and people writing these laws who can't think of everything. and yes there are reeeeelly stupid people who have such infantile blind faith in those laws that they literally are incapable of believing what thier own eyes tell them if it conflicts with what the law says. that's unfortunate. but obviously the OP isn't one of them. he understands what i described and if anyone on earth thinks he can claim any kind of hazard whatsoever from my method he's quite welcome to make my day. go 'head, just try an tell me how there could be any remotely conceivable possibility of starting a fire this way. yeah, if he's designing a commercial product, he has to follow federal law. but that most emphatically does NOT, and NEVER WILL, MAKE IT RIGHT, INTELLIGENT, OR TANGIBLY JUSTIFIABLE IN ANY WAY.
and how is it that glow plugs (easy fire starter) can be legal, and a piece of nichrome wire (you know, the kind that's used in countless commercial products like toasters, heaters and cigarette lighters, including the commercial product that i'm currently designing) is not? unless i'm mistaken, they are both equally and obviously incapable of starting a fire with a latex balloon.
as for your ad campaigns, i can think of one person who clearly has a need for this, the OP. it's way cheaper and simpler than a servo.
and he's not asking for a scientifically peer reviewed study, he's asking for a solution to a problem. i gave him a perfectly good one. and i couldn't care less if anybody doesn't believe what i said. i'm speaking out of extensive personal experience, and i'm sharing that experience. nuf said.
no i don't know as much as you do about this. but that does not necessarily mean that my solution isn't valid or legal.

Okay... No idea what the references are to those products, but hey, I don't understand lots of things...

Not sure which part of "yes, they've been doing what you suggest for 50 years" wasn't clear.

"unless i'm mistaken, they are both equally and obviously incapable of starting a fire with a latex balloon."
That statement is exactly why I stay off forums like this. Unless you are a forensic fire examiner/expert, you have no idea what is or is not capable of starting a fire with a latex balloon. I worked with latex in it's liquid raw form all the way through product manufacture for 8 years. I'm really not going to get into a conversation about this...

Fire Marshall, etc. etc. etc. Let me do the thinking for you... Most of these things are for large events, parties... like large balloons filled with confetti, candy, toys, are installed into the ceiling or rafters. This means...dust. Disturbed dust... Fragments of paper streamers that may have been left from other events, etc., etc. Now, go ahead, ignite your glow plug, whatever - with dust contained in a little cloud around the ignition source, then throw some confetti into it... No, Fire Marshall has nothing to worry about...

No one said your solution isn't valid or legal. Fact of the matter is, if you'd be so hell bent on using a heated wire, why go through all the trouble you posted? Rocket ignitors work perfectly, every time. No special soldering, just attach to the power source with a pair of clips like they do for model rockets. They cost nothing, so who cares? Other than the people caught in the fire that is...

 

Not sure which part of "yes, they've been doing what you suggest for 50 years" wasn't clear.

for starters, what does that have to do with anything?

I'm really not going to get into a conversation about this...

i asked you to come up with any kind of remotely plausible scenario by which you could start a fire with a latex balloon. it ain't rocket science.

Fire Marshall, etc. etc. etc. Let me do the thinking for you... Most of these things are for large events, parties... like large balloons filled with confetti, candy, toys, are installed into the ceiling or rafters. This means...dust. Disturbed dust... Fragments of paper streamers that may have been left from other events, etc., etc. Now, go ahead, ignite your glow plug, whatever - with dust contained in a little cloud around the ignition source, then throw some confetti into it... No, Fire Marshall has nothing to worry about...

standard reasoning of robots and sheep everywhere. if you can't refute what i say, start refuting a list of blatantly unrelated arguments that have nothing to do with what i said, and pretend that it has something to do with what i said. i didn't ask you how to start a fire with confetti or dust or streamers. i'm asking you to start a fire with a latex balloon like the one the OP was talking about. remember the OP? do you have anything to say that bears even remotely on what i actually said?

No one said your solution isn't valid or legal. Fact of the matter is, if you'd be so hell bent on using a heated wire, why go through all the trouble you posted? Rocket ignitors work perfectly, every time. No special soldering, just attach to the power source with a pair of clips like they do for model rockets. They cost nothing, so who cares? Other than the people caught in the fire that is...

just how stupid do think the members of this forum are?

 

So many of you are contributing to this thread and helping me out, I thought I'd better update you all on how I'm going with it. Apologies though for how slowly I'm moving - I can't devote much time to it at all at the moment.

Firstly ...

This would be a good bet .
View attachment 140765
I'm sorry I first put the NPN as follower

be80be, thanks again. I've put this to the test and it was perfect. Every part of it works brilliantly ... BUT ...

... front of mind is your and mtripoli3's warning about paralleling batteries.

Really, really bad idea series/paralleling alkaline (or carbon) batteries like this. I'm not going to go into all the why and wherefore's, there's tons of info out there about this. Check the "tech' sections of Energizer, Duracell for white papers. For those that want to argue the point; do it among yourselves, I'll not join in. If you want to make the argument that "it's done all the time using Lithium-Ion, NiMH, etc." do the research to understand why they can do this, and under what, very specific circumstances.

I don't want argue I'd use a better battery LOL and I wouldn't use a glow plug but that's what OP wanted it probably work
I was going to test it with some balloons I did do some battery test and it looked ok

Plus do you own a cordless drill there But you done no that Ok
the thing with series/paralleling alkaline (or carbon) when one die's you need take them out our next time you want use it one of them will have leaked out and caused corrosion I fix my grand kids toys all the time and there friends.
Oh I for got something the paralleled batteries in toys are the worst.
I got them trained now the take them out when dead.

So, I have been dissuaded from using parallel batteries, and over the last two days have been testing a setup using 2xAA batteries where one of the batteries is providing 1.5v to the boost converter, the ATTiny85V, and subsequently the relay coil, while the other battery is there solely to provide 1.5v to the glow plug when the relay is activated. The two batteries are not connected to each other in any way. And ... it has been working well.

Using a no-name, el cheapo, alkaline AA from the local discount store, I ran the converter, AT, relay, for 32 hours and over that time activated the relay coil 210 times for a duration of 2 seconds each time. Sometime after the 32 hour mark, the power was insufficient to activate the relay coil.

Simultaneously I tested another cheap alkaline alongside an Eneloop rechargable on the glow plugs.
The alkaline 'glowed' the plug for a 2 second duration 230 times over a 33 hour period before it became unreliable.
The Eneloop rechargable 'glowed' the plug for a 2 second duration 240 times over a 43 hour period at which point I stopped the test because it was still lighting up the plug red hot, and immediately.

be80be, perhaps batteries and/or the glow plugs have improved since your Cox model plane days?

So, it would seem that a couple of AA's will be more than sufficient to run the glow plug device for a day's event.

There is some concern about potential fire risk in using a glow plug so I am going to also work on mtripoli3's advice regarding a servo. I've can see pros and cons for both methods. I think my own testing, and any regulatory/insurance influences will decide which is the better option.

Loving all your help, thank you again.

LB

 

I'd hope they got better by now LOL batteries do leak so take them out when dead.
Paralleling batteries make it happen faster is all.......
The servo is a good idea I would of posted that but you said glow plug
But one thing is really bad about the popping it with a sharpie, Or whatever you use it can cut someone

The world we live in now blood contact is not a good thing you may be sued for everything you own and your kids to.

Bottom line is if it pokes a hole in it it would have to return to a state where no one can get cut with it when they remove it.

I don't think you'll set any fires with the glow plug tho, It would take more heat then you'll get plus once the hole pops the air will more then likely blow it out.

Like blowing out a match.

 

I'd hope they got better by now LOL batteries do leak so take them out when dead.
Paralleling batteries make it happen faster is all.......
The servo is a good idea I would of posted that but you said glow plug
But one thing is really bad about the popping it with a sharpie, Or whatever you use it can cut someone

The world we live in now blood contact is not a good thing you may be sued for everything you own and your kids to.

Bottom line is if it pokes a hole in it it would have to return to a state where no one can get cut with it when they remove it.

I don't think you'll set any fires with the glow plug tho, It would take more heat then you'll get plus once the hole pops the air will more then likely blow it out.

Like blowing out a match.

Indeed, we only see the glow plug heat up for 2 seconds then shut off. At that point our software loop stops running so there is no chance of it re-heating until the device is rebooted and the process restarted. I'm hoping that helps minimise any fire risk. Also, it's only planned application is as you saw in the video - in an open field, physically separated from anything else. Still ... you never know how someone might misuse it.

And yes, I share your thoughts about the risk (albeit slim) of a cut. Though I will play around with the servo option.

You know, there is something very appealing about a device with no moving parts though. That is certainly one aspect that keeps me thinking of the glow plug.

 

for starters, what does that have to do with anything?


i asked you to come up with any kind of remotely plausible scenario by which you could start a fire with a latex balloon. it ain't rocket science.


standard reasoning of robots and sheep everywhere. if you can't refute what i say, start refuting a list of blatantly unrelated arguments that have nothing to do with what i said, and pretend that it has something to do with what i said. i didn't ask you how to start a fire with confetti or dust or streamers. i'm asking you to start a fire with a latex balloon like the one the OP was talking about. remember the OP? do you have anything to say that bears even remotely on what i actually said?


just how stupid do think the members of this forum are?

I think that they're stupid enough to make arguments where there aren't any.

Look, do whatever you want - I make a living, that means getting paid, for what comes out of my head. Part of that is because I can make clear, concise decisions, and know what I'm talking about. I'm not sure what it is you do, I'm guessing it's not technical writing, or why you seem so hell bent on arguing, but I'm out - I couldn't care less what you have to say, period.

(Mildly insulting language removed by moderator)

 

I think that they're stupid enough to make arguments where there aren't any.

Look, do whatever you want - I make a living, that means getting paid, for what comes out of my head. Part of that is because I can make clear, concise decisions, and know what I'm talking about. I'm not sure what it is you do, I'm guessing it's not technical writing, or why you seem so hell bent on arguing, but I'm out - I couldn't care less what you have to say, period.

(Mildly insulting language removed by moderator)

you guys have a great way of showing your IQs. my posts get reported as off-topic (and because nobody could answer what i said) but this guy's kindergarten retort remains.
so let's get back to the topic and stay on it: my suggestion of using a nichrome wire is obviously the simplest and cheapest solution. it's also perfectly safe, reliable and durable. whether the op agrees or not is irrelevant. what's relevant is the op's QUESTION. so unless he wants to delete his own question (and the whole thread along with it), my answer is STILL the best answer to that question, and the fact that nobody has been able to contest that fact is just about as obviously relevant to that question as anything anybody else has said here.
unless, of course, i'm WRONG. am i? hello..... anybody? i'm still waiting for someone to come up with a BETTER ANSWER to the op's question than mine.
so in case you're just walking in on this conversation, my answer was to use a tiny piece of nichrome wire, connect it to the drain of a pFET, and connect the gate of the FET to a low frequency pwm signal on one of the GPIOs on the tiny85. cost, <$.10
job. done.

 

mikewax If you wanted a house in the woods and your paying for it would take one in the city? I wouldn't.

Nothing bad about using nichrome wire simple but hook up not as easy got crimp it solder not going to work
so you get a glow plug you just snap it on same way as on the engine.

But a glow plug is a little piece of nichrome wire with a body to hold the wire and easy to replace when it burns out.

 

mikewax If you wanted a house in the woods and your paying for it would take one in the city? I wouldn't.
Nothing bad about using nichrome wire simple but hook up not as easy got crimp it solder not going to work
so you get a glow plug you just snap it on same way as on the engine.
But a glow plug is a little piece of nichrome wire with a body to hold the wire and easy to replace when it burns out.

THANK YOU that's a reasonable objection. but solder DOES work if you have the right kind of flux. i linked it in my 1st post. i got it from somebody in Russia. and it works just fine, just like copper wire. at least it sure does on 40 awg nichrome. with regular 63/37 solder. a glow plug is slow and expensive. maybe the op has never ordered boards from oshpark. for $8 you can have scores of little wire mounts made. two little squares of copper at the edge of a board. and solder a loop of wire to the two squares so that it protrudes over the edge. it's still way easier than mounting a glow plug. it attaches to a balloon with a piece of tape. or it can be attached to the rim of his bucket balloon holder. one popper will work for a great many baloons.