A WWW without the internet?

Thread Starter

strantor

Joined Oct 3, 2010
5,967
Has the internet or its parent technologies brought us any concepts for a world wide web of information that could be applied to a world without internet?

Say you time-travelled to 2,000 years ago and there were no paradoxes to worry about; is there anything that having all the world's information in your pocket has taught you? Anything that would help you help the people of the past evolve past recording data on goat scrotums and hiding it in clay jars in caves? A shortcut to becoming globally connected (loose term) free sharers of information? Or were the systems they had at the time, really the best that could have been achieved even in retrospect?

As far as I have considered, the most important things to bring to a world without electronics might be Engineering units, the Dewey Decimal System, and the telegraph.
 

BobTPH

Joined Jun 5, 2013
4,897
It seems to me that the limited density of information storage and the speed of transport would make it impossible to have anything resembling the web. Or maybe I misunderstand your question.

Bob
 

Thread Starter

strantor

Joined Oct 3, 2010
5,967
It seems to me that the limited density of information storage and the speed of transport would make it impossible to have anything resembling the web.
I think I agree mostly. Nothing resembling the web could have been achieved. But surely improvements in general access to information could have been achieved? I think in most cases, access to libraries was reserved for the wealthy? And the ability to read was also a thing not of the common folk. If you did have wealth and literacy, still you might spend years crossing oceans and poring over irrelevant data in search of a single bit of text. Something that would take us 10s to pull out a phone and Google. What concepts or low-tech technologies do we know now, that could be applied in those times to usher along a primitive "information age?" I think replication and dissemination of data would be key. Printing presses? Microfiche?
maybe I misunderstand your question.

Bob
The question is open to interpretation so you didn't misunderstand.
 

Thread Starter

strantor

Joined Oct 3, 2010
5,967
I think the answer is no, but more interestingly why does it matter?
It doesn't matter at all. It's just a stupid thought that happens to be taking up 80% cranial computing power at the moment, and the sooner I have a fully formed set of thoughts on it, the sooner I can let it go and get back to focusing on things that DO matter.
 

Ya’akov

Joined Jan 27, 2019
5,657
The most powerful thing about the web is indexing. Indices have always been powerful tools but when they have to be created manually, they are far less valuable. The necessary additional aspect is access to a library that contains the information in the index, another non-starter without the 'net.
 

Ya’akov

Joined Jan 27, 2019
5,657
I'll add that something like the library at Alexandria was a huge innovation somewhat resembling the 'net, but again, indices are the key to making it most useful and in the past that was in the head of human "geniuses".
 

Papabravo

Joined Feb 24, 2006
18,403
Then we have the search. Who remembers using a card catalog at a library. The ones at the Firestone Library (Princeton University ca. 1960) occupied a good chunk of the first floor lobby and were massive pieces of furniture. A common complaint from faculty and staff at the time, was that the library could not maintain the card catalog in a timely fashion.

Firestone Library | Princeton University Library
 

nsaspook

Joined Aug 27, 2009
9,722
Has the internet or its parent technologies brought us any concepts for a world wide web of information that could be applied to a world without internet?

Say you time-travelled to 2,000 years ago and there were no paradoxes to worry about; is there anything that having all the world's information in your pocket has taught you? Anything that would help you help the people of the past evolve past recording data on goat scrotums and hiding it in clay jars in caves? A shortcut to becoming globally connected (loose term) free sharers of information? Or were the systems they had at the time, really the best that could have been achieved even in retrospect?

As far as I have considered, the most important things to bring to a world without electronics might be Engineering units, the Dewey Decimal System, and the telegraph.
If by 'internet' you mean communications technologies then no because digital communications technologies that shared information existed long before the internet and I would expect that eventually the 'internet' as is configured today will be replaced. What's really happened is the expense of communications as dropped to the point the 'little' guy can use it for everyday personal use.

'Wireless' was used in Ancient Times.
Ancients not only signaled by mirrors but were technologically advanced enough to employ codes. Polybius (Greek historian 208–125 BC) goes into considerable detail in describing an ingenious and elaborate method invented by Cleoxenus and Democlitus that was later perfected by Polybius himself — known as the ‘Polybius Checkerboard’. Polybius did not originally intend this device as a cipher so much as an aid to telegraphy.
 

visionofast

Joined Oct 17, 2018
93
with or without internet, "A big head has a big ache"...
and it would be a better criterion for human beeing than evolution or something else.
 

visionofast

Joined Oct 17, 2018
93
What does that even mean? Too obscure for my poor brain.
Advancement in technology is not a proper gauge for human beeing if it has not improved the sense of compassion and sympathy between people.
a bunch of documents from Solomon's age says,there're other creatures than humans who enjoy a high level of sicence and technology so .as they call'em aliens, jinnies or something.
 

Papabravo

Joined Feb 24, 2006
18,403
Advancement in technology is not a proper gauge for human beeing if it has not improved the sense of compassion and sympathy between people.
a bunch of documents from Solomon's age says,there're other creatures than humans who enjoy a high level of sicence and technology so .as they call'em aliens, jinnies or something.
Seems to me they might be independent. Why might you conflate advancement in technology with social evolution.
 

killivolt

Joined Jan 10, 2010
829
a bunch of documents from Solomon's age says,there're other creatures than humans who enjoy a high level of sicence and technology so .as they call'em aliens, jinnies or something.
I would really enjoy leaning in on this but, I work today. So, I’ll simply observe and take notes.

You released the jin from the bottle, I am researching early Mesopotamian Religion, this is a fine line but if no one gets their feeling hurt we can have an adult discussion. I am asking the “Moderation” to allow it, as well as the ‘OP’ because I would love to make some comments, as to why, where, when, how, we got to the here of Internet, data storage then spin it to historical methods and back again to future ’Tech’

Carry on if allowed. Because you have now crossed the boundary into religion.

kv

Seems to me they might be independent. Why might you conflate advancement in technology with social evolution.
They are independent, and have been but he does have a point, what isn’t represented here is his definition of what it is to be human, -hu, man. It isn’t sympathy but empathy, an act of conjoining ones self into the reality with another -hu, man and their current struggle, pain, or other circumstance they face in this life. Togetherness, living it with them, to have sympathy does nothing, the act itself does not require personal investment, it is simply pity. That takes the -hu, out of the man, displacing it away from humane or the rest of what we call humanity.

I lean back now to take notes, hopefully this doesn’t get shut down before it gets started.

kv
 
Last edited:

visionofast

Joined Oct 17, 2018
93
I would really enjoy leaning in on this but, I work today. So, I’ll simply observe and take notes.

You released the jin from the bottle, I am researching early Mesopotamian Religion, this is a fine line but if no one gets their feeling hurt we can have an adult discussion. I am asking the “Moderation” to allow it, as well as the ‘OP’ because I would love to make some comments, as to why, where, when, how, we got to the here of Internet, data storage then spin it to historical methods and back again to future ’Tech’

Carry on if allowed. Because you have now crossed the boundary into religion.
ehh...The fact is that,I everyday check the main news spreads through out internet ,and hoped that one day somthing comes from the sky to diminish the amount of these nervewracking news. until the covid-19 pandemic happened,but it was all a misery that even a great pandemic couldn't affect the rate of this propagation.
so,as a result, I think science must have nothing to do with this great disaster anymore.yes,it's time to ring that church's bell or bring that jins back to the bottle by any means.
not necessarily from religious books,the key facts and roots can be found even in novels like "In Evil Hour" from Gabriel García Márquez as well.
 

Papabravo

Joined Feb 24, 2006
18,403
I knew that studying Macbeth in High School would come in handy some day. The Bard said it well.

Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
 

killivolt

Joined Jan 10, 2010
829
ehh...
not necessarily from religious books,the key facts and roots can be found even in novels like "In Evil Hour" from Gabriel García Márquez as well.
Agreed, the books. Evidentiary explainable semi truths, out of the minds of babe’s they shall confound the wise and learned. Minds born everyday, small Finite State Machines, they grow into Biological Robots, I myself am one, as you are, we along with the rest of -humanity are a giant ‘System of Information’ both storing data, transforming it, erasing it.

Perception? The Biological Robot, the animal man, stuck within a frame, the frame is within time and time is an expression. ‘Light entered into Darkness and the Darkness comprehended it not’ what Darkness does not understand it seeks to destroy, so we die daily on a planet that wants to consume you, transform you, Replant and start over. The Universe operates on the same level, it does not defy the laws of physics, energy can neither be created or destroyed only transformed.

I’m relatively positive you know this, I’m not writing, instead you are. What you say? Yup in our face, theory of relativity, ha ha he he. If you were to asked your father for a piece of bread, would he give you a rock instead? No, so shall you ask, so shall you receive. The Universe is the Creator saying I will give to you what you seek and over time you shall receive, all that you ask and more.

Locked inside the earth, it is a book of such information, then stored on a shelf in a library, within the known Universe, the pages contained within the book tell the story since the beginning and just as the creator said, were it not so, I would not have told you. Look around you and see what the spirit say-th unto the churches.

Churches are a metaphor, it is us and as carbon based units the Biological Robots, we are designed to both send and receive information, by design we can project or be subjected to information exchange, on a planet that is both alive and dead, in a constant state of change 1’s and 0’s it is true, it is false. Alive in an instant and dead in the next, constant state of change, just as a flip flop state change it’s all relatively connected loosely and yet tightly bound, within the pages of time, in a book, in a library called the Universe, the Library has a storage infinite space, accessible to any who seek it, available to any bot, carbon base unit, stuck in a quagmire stifled in an existence the manifestation either real or illusionary. Why is it both, how can that be you ask?

Ok, hit your finger accidentally and the pain will tell you its real, Not an illusion, but if I pull you out of time and space, above yourself as I have been, no longer bound by this planet to experience a true freedom. What is true freedom you ask?

It is to be dead.

We are a part of a Giant Data Base, it warehouses all of the information within this known Galaxy and beyond, infinite without measure. Beautiful, perfect, a physical machine in a physical Universe, a Physical reality, not a manifestation of reality.

I don’t direct anything to you, rather to us, the-humans, humanoids, Biological Carbon based Units, Evolved, claimed we descended from Hominids, a species that has long since faded away in the annuals of time, stored in the databank of earths history, but the smallest of small genetic link resides, we are no longer the animal ape, but a living thriving organism, on a planet spinning in space and time.

Allowed to think therefor I am, a finite state machine, smallest of small, yet together we are a vast wealth of information, in your DNA is the key, it’s the root that grows, with each data upload and download, the earth acting as the re-agent, viruses maybe even bacteria are the delivery system into our DNA, entering the body and acting on the tree of the human genome, graphing in the biological change of state, and with each encounter evolution of body and mind expand, research has shown viruses act within co-operation, to achieve genetic splicing which could or has a potential of mutating our genetic code, hopefully acceptable desired traits.

Maybe just maybe the genetic upgrade has started or maybe it just hasn’t ended? Maybe not in our time, maybe it will be a slow progression as it has always been, simian, hominoid to human, haplogroups. Upgrade well that sounds cool to me and what can we hope for, to be more human or less human a biological upgrade, a better CPU able to access system resources requiring less energy to complete data storage, increasing long term memory, less time from birth to acquire life skills, knowing before learning, processing information efficiently, transferring data between a quantum state machine. If was possible would be cool right?

Not in your lifetime though, if it is possible the WWW of it all, will grow in such a way that the biological unit can transmit data without it, in an instant it is receive by the next bio bot carbon based unit, passed along at the speed of light squared, biochemical photon Emissions become Transmissions.

If you do not accept that you are a creature of light, then why do you emit photons?

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0006256

In a quantum world, our quantum state machine in the future could possibly see and calculate received photon emissions, if possible we could project images of data to one another in the future and the biological robot could send and receive data, also emit waves, encoded and then decoded by the recipient, like an email forwarded by another short range bot or a possible uploaded into the ether for long range. The Universe is energy in it is the database, from that is a server, readily available both now and in the future for anyone, if cannot possibly see it then, why study Blackhole corona, thought to gulp and spew reorganized data, transformed then emitted back into the Universe.

This wasn’t my thought experiment, rather it was the OP’s, it was simply my interpretation of what he was asking for, maybe or maybe not acceptable to some not at all to others, certainly not for those out their on the .net only for this forum, because it won’t break your laws of your physical universe, nor will it add to it, it’s what you already know, or previously thought in a passing moment of thought.

kv

But, this is only a projection from my internal mind, a projection, printed, uploaded, downloaded re-printed and to be received by your retina, I apologize now for what you seen. lol
 

visionofast

Joined Oct 17, 2018
93
Agreed, the books. Evidentiary explainable semi truths, out of the minds of babe’s they shall confound the wise and learned. Minds born everyday, small Finite State Machines, they grow into Biological Robots, I myself am one, as you are, we along with the rest of -humanity are a giant ‘System of Information’ both storing data, transforming it, erasing it.

Perception? The Biological Robot, the animal man, stuck within a frame, the frame is within time and time is an expression. ‘Light entered into Darkness and the Darkness comprehended it not’ what Darkness does not understand it seeks to destroy, so we die daily on a planet that wants to consume you, transform you, Replant and start over. The Universe operates on the same level, it does not defy the laws of physics, energy can neither be created or destroyed only transformed.

I’m relatively positive you know this, I’m not writing, instead you are. What you say? Yup in our face, theory of relativity, ha ha he he. If you were to asked your father for a piece of bread, would he give you a rock instead? No, so shall you ask, so shall you receive. The Universe is the Creator saying I will give to you what you seek and over time you shall receive, all that you ask and more.

Locked inside the earth, it is a book of such information, then stored on a shelf in a library, within the known Universe, the pages contained within the book tell the story since the beginning and just as the creator said, were it not so, I would not have told you. Look around you and see what the spirit say-th unto the churches.

Churches are a metaphor, it is us and as carbon based units the Biological Robots, we are designed to both send and receive information, by design we can project or be subjected to information exchange, on a planet that is both alive and dead, in a constant state of change 1’s and 0’s it is true, it is false. Alive in an instant and dead in the next, constant state of change, just as a flip flop state change it’s all relatively connected loosely and yet tightly bound, within the pages of time, in a book, in a library called the Universe, the Library has a storage infinite space, accessible to any who seek it, available to any bot, carbon base unit, stuck in a quagmire stifled in an existence the manifestation either real or illusionary. Why is it both, how can that be you ask?

Ok, hit your finger accidentally and the pain will tell you its real, Not an illusion, but if I pull you out of time and space, above yourself as I have been, no longer bound by this planet to experience a true freedom. What is true freedom you ask?

It is to be dead.

We are a part of a Giant Data Base, it warehouses all of the information within this known Galaxy and beyond, infinite without measure. Beautiful, perfect, a physical machine in a physical Universe, a Physical reality, not a manifestation of reality.

I don’t direct anything to you, rather to us, the-humans, humanoids, Biological Carbon based Units, Evolved, claimed we descended from Hominids, a species that has long since faded away in the annuals of time, stored in the databank of earths history, but the smallest of small genetic link resides, we are no longer the animal ape, but a living thriving organism, on a planet spinning in space and time.

Allowed to think therefor I am, a finite state machine, smallest of small, yet together we are a vast wealth of information, in your DNA is the key, it’s the root that grows, with each data upload and download, the earth acting as the re-agent, viruses maybe even bacteria are the delivery system into our DNA, entering the body and acting on the tree of the human genome, graphing in the biological change of state, and with each encounter evolution of body and mind expand, research has shown viruses act within co-operation, to achieve genetic splicing which could or has a potential of mutating our genetic code, hopefully acceptable desired traits.

Maybe just maybe the genetic upgrade has started or maybe it just hasn’t ended? Maybe not in our time, maybe it will be a slow progression as it has always been, simian, hominoid to human, haplogroups. Upgrade well that sounds cool to me and what can we hope for, to be more human or less human a biological upgrade, a better CPU able to access system resources requiring less energy to complete data storage, increasing long term memory, less time from birth to acquire life skills, knowing before learning, processing information efficiently, transferring data between a quantum state machine. If was possible would be cool right?

Not in your lifetime though, if it is possible the WWW of it all, will grow in such a way that the biological unit can transmit data without it, in an instant it is receive by the next bio bot carbon based unit, passed along at the speed of light squared, biochemical photon Emissions become Transmissions.

If you do not accept that you are a creature of light, then why do you emit photons?

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0006256

In a quantum world, our quantum state machine in the future could possibly see and calculate received photon emissions, if possible we could project images of data to one another in the future and the biological robot could send and receive data, also emit waves, encoded and then decoded by the recipient, like an email forwarded by another short range bot or a possible uploaded into the ether for long range. The Universe is energy in it is the database, from that is a server, readily available both now and in the future for anyone, if cannot possibly see it then, why study Blackhole corona, thought to gulp and spew reorganized data, transformed then emitted back into the Universe.

This wasn’t my thought experiment, rather it was the OP’s, it was simply my interpretation of what he was asking for, maybe or maybe not acceptable to some not at all to others, certainly not for those out their on the .net only for this forum, because it won’t break your laws of your physical universe, nor will it add to it, it’s what you already know, or previously thought in a passing moment of thought.

kv

But, this is only a projection from my internal mind, a projection, printed, uploaded, downloaded re-printed and to be received by your retina, I apologize now for what you seen. lol
IMO all of the facts you mentioned should also be categorized by a biblical vision ,
So,you can use this libertine internet or generally the laws of physics you said,like that new quantum stuffs to make a new devastating weapon to kill others ,or instead to make a new device that predicts or prevents diseases and disasters.
science can be developed both within a devilous trend or numinous one.one would create a devil from human and optimistically make him away from his nature like a robot, and other can make him a prophet claiming his divinity.
 
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