250-300 kgs was mentioned as the target motorcycle weight.
200 Watts was the motor power. I didn't go into load or ratio.

This is why I said you are doing it backward. A large motor can pick up a small load, but why? In a car or stationary item weight and size are usually no problem, a motorcycle is different, those things need to be thought out. Why use more than is needed for the job? Use only the size and power to get it done.

I don't consider that I was being flighty or evasive. Maybe I didn't get your point, or understand your question,
or maybe you were asking a question in a roundabout way?

My meaning may possibly not be fully explained
in my text or diagrams. Weird descriptors probably are part of an analogy I was using, like a zero motion reference. That is analogous to a signal zero or ground value, possibly??

My point was in the many questions and was said, "what do you mean by 'zero point' ". You never gave an answer just changed the subject. Why keep trying to use electrical/electronic analogies? This is about mechanical.

Frames of reference are not normally part of an engineering discussion. They come up a lot in physics.
I was trying to establish that the initial mechanism had no external measure of rotation, only an internal
one. Sometimes external measurements or attachments can be important.

The rough rotation diagrams
were about that also. I suspect that an engineer would not normally use such diagrams, but an inventor or a
physicist would.

Why would it even need a 'external measure of rotation' or 'frame of reference'? It's at rest not moving, no reference needed, no rotation happening. This is why the one way bearing is a good fit for what your doing. Power applied to the up direction takes it to that 'rest' place. Gravity pulls it down to the deployed place.

Inventions that are successful are usually the simplest, not the most complicated. They are only made more complicated by people trying to get around a patent, to prove it's not doing the same thing as the original one was.

And now you are adding physicist to your resume? You do know that physics is more about the theory of how things work and engineering is about making it work don't you?

 

Really, they just can't be bothered trying to appreciate some other person's point of view.

Can't believe you made that statement to me.

This is all you need to build motorbikes and motorbike frames: It is not a "rocket science"-type occupation...

Takes a little more than that. Are you a certified welder? Peoples lives are at stake with something like this, others lives, not just your own.

 

The pot on the motor controller has the on and off switch made into it.
You can also use it without the pot with PWM.
And a single pole switch.

 

The pot has a switch make into it to turn on the power and you can use PWM with it or the pot take your pick.

 

Can't believe you made that statement to me.



Takes a little more than that. Are you a certified welder? Peoples lives are at stake with something like this, others lives, not just your own.

Welding certificate is not needed for LVVTA inspection and certification.. For vehicle approval, all welds must be done using TIG, critical parts
are crack tested, and welding on mild steel parts only. No welded forgings, nothing that needs post-weld heat treatment, unless done by a transport-certified supplier. Imported aftermarket critical parts cannot be used
unless they have gone through a New Zealand certification process.

 

Quote/
Really, they just can't be bothered trying to appreciate some other person's point of view.

Can't believe you made that statement to me./Quote.

I don't know anything about you, so I am not sure on the relevance of your reply.
I haven't researched your online profile.
The comment was made as part of a general "Rant" about my interactions with various "old boys clubs"
and male culture in general. Part of the "Talking Crap" allowance, but containing a possible germ of truth.
I have never been "included" so I am not really sure what the big deal is?(about male culture).

 

My point was in the many questions and was said, "what do you mean by 'zero point' ". You never gave an answer just changed the subject. Why keep trying to use electrical/electronic analogies? This is about mechanical.

This is why I said you are doing it backward. A large motor can pick up a small load, but why? In a car or stationary item weight and size are usually no problem, a motorcycle is different, those things need to be thought out. Why use more than is needed for the job? Use only the size and power to get it done.

1) Some lessons from Logic and digital circuitry can be applied to mechanisms, like "States" and "Zero References" , and "State diagrams". They are not normally encountered in mechanical engineering because
you are usually adapting something known to work, and following design guidelines.

2) The large motor concept was copied from the "ZeroRacer, zerotracer, ECO" designs.
It was originally intended to deploy in less than a second, and to do both sides at once.
I have since decided than I can work with slower retraction and approximately gravity deployment,
so I can do with a smaller motor. Also, I had no knowledge of the range of products from the
Robot Shop. They fill a gap in the normal commercial gear-motor ranges from sources such as Alibaba.

Quote/
Why would it even need a 'external measure of rotation' or 'frame of reference'? It's at rest not moving, no reference needed, no rotation happening. This is why the one way bearing is a good fit for what your doing. Power applied to the up direction takes it to that 'rest' place. Gravity pulls it down to the deployed place.

And now you are adding physicist to your resume? You do know that physics is more about the theory of how things work and engineering is about making it work don't you?

According to my testing of the states required, the rotation diagrams, and the established need for
a measure of whether the motor was rotating or not, a simple device like a one-way bearing will not do the job.
There is a reason they they are called an "overrunning clutch".
I may be better at demonstrating the things to myself than I am at explaining them to other people.

Rehysics-there is more to physics than the insides of atoms. A lot of this stuff about gravity, acceleration,
and general "mechanics" was demonstrated to "us" in high school physics.
I also pick up a little bit of "semi-popular" physics here and there.

I also remember some courses on applied maths that demonstrated how calculus and mechanics are related.
Ie derivatives in equations of motion, and stability of servo-follower mechanisms-not that this is related
to the stabilizer wheels.

 

According to my testing of the states required, the rotation diagrams, and the established need for
a measure of whether the motor was rotating or not, a simple device like a one-way bearing will not do the job.
There is a reason they they are called an "overrunning clutch".
I may be better at demonstrating the things to myself than I am at explaining them to other people.

Yes they are used as 'overrunning clutches' but that is not the only thing they are used for or in. The most widely known example is the hub in a multi-speed bicycle. no overrunning there just a oneway transfer of power from the pedals to the wheel.

What are you talking about with the "measure of whether the motor was rotating or not"? More of your not making sense.

When the outrigger is in the up position the motor is off, the 'spot brake'(your own selected device) is on holding it. When you want to deploy the outrigger, the motor is still off, but the brake is released, letting gravity rotate it down until it hits the ground, then the brake is set again to keep it in the deployed position. To put in the 'stored position', the brake is released and the motor started, the oneway bearing is driven to pull the outrigger up again. When it raeches the stored position a limit switch signals it is where it needs to be, shuts off the motor and the brake is set, holding it for the next deployment. Simple, easy peasy, no dog clutches, no friction pucks, no expensive machined parts. The same mechanical idea as the multi-speed bike wheel example.

 

\\\\\

Yes they are used as 'overrunning clutches' but that is not the only thing they are used for or in. The most widely known example is the hub in a multi-speed bicycle. no overrunning there just a oneway transfer of power from the pedals to the wheel.

What are you talking about with the "measure of whether the motor was rotating or not"? More of your not making sense.

When the outrigger is in the up position the motor is off, the 'spot brake'(your own selected device) is on holding it. When you want to deploy the outrigger, the motor is still off, but the brake is released, letting gravity rotate it down until it hits the ground, then the brake is set again to keep it in the deployed position. To put in the 'stored position', the brake is released and the motor started, the oneway bearing is driven to pull the outrigger up again. When it reaches the stored position a limit switch signals it is where it needs to be, shuts off the motor and the brake is set, holding it for the next deployment. Simple, easy peasy, no dog clutches, no friction pucks, no expensive machined parts. The same mechanical idea as the multi-speed bike wheel example.

1) The one-way hub in a bicycle is a perfect example of overrunning. The pedal input is exactly the same as a starter motor input. The ouput side can rotate faster than the input, and not be driven, or pull the input along.
That is what overrunning is. The ability of the pedals to turn backwards is not useful to a spool-out mechanism.
The overriding feature is that the output side only rotates in one direction, or else the output will drive the input in reverse.
2) the cases: a) the load spooling out, with the motor not driving, and
b) the motor driving in the winding-up direction, are identical with no external reference. For the motor to then
engage and pull the load back is a totally different state. You need a "state-change device", like a solenoid-
operated clutch, or other external mechanical linkage, as I suggest.

3) Re: online profiles. I decided there was no advantage to me in having no online profile, as I have a public
blog, and post stuff under my own name on line.
I still limit the publication of my email address to avoid getting clogged up with spam.

I have gotten a few fake "friend" requests, presumably from spammers?- no other problems.
The only reasons I can see to use fake names and not have a public "timeline" are :

a) you are a crim or "black-hat";
b) you are embarrassed about info on your timeline;
c) you post really rude, pornographic, or compromising material you don't want the general public to see;
d) you are trying to avoid being "groomed" by con artists and child molesters;
e) someone is really out to "get you" -personal enemies or a side effect of your job.
This mania for "privacy" seems to be fairly widespread. - You??

I also looked up "Shortbus" in the Urban Dictionary - "special needs" education, physical or
mental handicap? . The term is not used in New Zealand. - usually just "Gimp" or "Retard" if you
want to be rude- I suppose ADHD , other learning disabilities, and Autism come in somewhere there, too.

 

I've tried to explain every way I know how to do it, and it's no use. You have such tunnel vision I'm just pounding my head against a brick wall. Do it how ever you want. Good luck with your project.

Why would you care what my name means? You are a weird person and a troll, please take me off of your follow list. You have shown why people on other forums give you a bad time.

 

shortbus I don't see how anyone could miss the picture of your bus.LOL
I thought this was about.

wiring and control method to connect an arduino to a PWM dc controller

Not name calling shortbus was just trying to point things out and the rest of these post and not helping to get anywhere are they.
You but the controller that fits your needs and one that tells you it can be used with PWM.
Your needs is based on the motor you pick get a controller 30% to 50% higher rating.

 

I've tried to explain every way I know how to do it, and it's no use. You have such tunnel vision I'm just pounding my head against a brick wall. Do it how ever you want. Good luck with your project.

Why would you care what my name means? You are a weird person and a troll, please take me off of your follow list. You have shown why people on other forums give you a bad time.

1) I thought I explained the problem pretty well. If you have lived with Boolean logic and really understand the concept of system state and system boundaries, you would understand. They teach that sort of stuff in thermodynamics.

2) There is nothing wrong with being a bit weird. I am happy to be me. I am not being "mean" to others, so what's the hassle? It is your problem if you are uncomfortable with the stuff I come up with.

3) You set me off on my "people researching" ways with one of your previous replies. I wanted to understand your meaning. Why does it make you angry that I wanted to find out more about you?

4) I don't fit the definition of a "Troll". They deliberately create controversy in order to get a "rise" out of someone, and create an argument. I don't do it deliberately, it is you that have a problem with unusual
stuff.

 

shortbus I don't see how anyone could miss the picture of your bus.LOL
I thought this was about.
Not name calling shortbus was just trying to point things out and the rest of these post and not helping to get anywhere are they.
You but the controller that fits your needs and one that tells you it can be used with PWM.
Your needs is based on the motor you pick get a controller 30% to 50% higher rating.

@ be80be Hi , I also knew that the extra wires on the pot was an 'on/off' switch. But didn't give that answer because I've been trying to help this member understand, but he has his mind made up on how things work and what won't work. This isn't his first thread on his project. He has complained about how he is 'treated' on other sites, and if his actions here are any indication of how he acts there, I completely understand the treatment. He is a know it all, that knows nothing of what he's talking about. He is picking a motor and driver with no knowledge of the load, before the load is even determined.

 

1) I thought I explained the problem pretty well. If you have lived with Boolean logic and really understand the concept of system state and system boundaries, you would understand. They teach that sort of stuff in thermodynamics.

I've done what you're attempting for over 50 years, both professionally and as a hobby. You may know 'Boolean logic' but you don't know mechanics and how things work in a real world situation. As someone how helped design and then maintained machines that used the one way bearing in exactly the way I described it for your purpose I know it works. You keep throwing "words" into the discussion that have no meaning to mechanical principles, must be to make you feel more important, good for you.

2) There is nothing wrong with being a bit weird. I am happy to be me. I am not being "mean" to others, so what's the hassle? It is your problem if you are uncomfortable with the stuff I come up with.

I too am a little 'weird' and proud of it. Come up with all the 'stuff' you want. You're in good company, another guy made a living off of it, Rube Goldberg. But predict you won't be as successful or well known as him. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rube_Goldberg_machine

3) You set me off on my "people researching" ways with one of your previous replies. I wanted to understand your meaning. Why does it make you angry that I wanted to find out more about you?

I never give more than what is in my profile on the web. That is by design, unlike you who seems to think having a "blog" makes you an "expert" in what ever you chose to make a claim too. You gave me the address of the blog I went and read it, you invited me to check you out. I didn't. Looks like you've been taking down a lot of your "expert" content.

4) I don't fit the definition of a "Troll". They deliberately create controversy in order to get a "rise" out of someone, and create an argument. I don't do it deliberately, it is you that have a problem with unusual
stuff

And you don't seem to have a problem coming up with 'unusual stuff'. I'm not the first, according to you to disagree with you concepts, and probably won't be the last. I'm more into "usual stuff" things that are simple and work. Things that other things use, off the shelf things that work.

 

I've done what you're attempting for over 50 years, both professionally and as a hobby. You may know 'Boolean logic' but you don't know mechanics and how things work in a real world situation. As someone how helped design and then maintained machines that used the one way bearing in exactly the way I described it for your purpose I know it works. You keep throwing "words" into the discussion that have no meaning to mechanical principles, must be to make you feel more important, good for you. /*
O: How do you do that "subquoting thing?

1) You must be as old as methuselah!. I have managed 23 years in "qualified" work, and I understand some people get over 35 years.
Maybe it is too much tertiary education. Also I seem to be crap at saving for my retirement.

2)However, I would like to make a "Troll" point here: You seem to be arguing from a point of wilful ignorance with regard to mechanical
subsystems. I apply techniques of "black box" input-output analysis; setting of system boundaries; handling of torques;
correct application of rotation "vector" notation; and determination of input/output "state" which you seem to have forgotten, or never
leaned in the first place. Without these skills, you are liable to make a complete hash of any structural or mechanical analysis.
I have presented logical and compelling arguments in these terms, and you fail to recognise that they are in fact compelling arguments.
Thus. you lack essential background knowledge and skills.

*/
I too am a little 'weird' and proud of it. Come up with all the 'stuff' you want. You're in good company, another guy made a living off of it, Rube Goldberg. But predict you won't be as successful or well known as him. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rube_Goldberg_machine */
0: I have heard of the name-wasn't he a cartoonist? I think I have seen a couple of his cartoons.
*/
I never give more than what is in my profile on the web. That is by design, unlike you who seems to think having a "blog" makes you an "expert" in what ever you chose to make a claim too. You gave me the address of the blog I went and read it, you invited me to check you out. I didn't. Looks like you've been taking down a lot of your "expert" content. */
O: I haven't removed anything from my projects blog. I will have a look. The only things I may have put up there that is even vaguely
"expert" would be workings and calculations of some sort.
O: I feel that I want to have an "audience" for my proposals and project designs. - maybe a semi-commercial interest? Doubtful if it will
ever "take off" but I am comfortable with being publically known. I don't seem to have gathered any real "enemies" or stalkers/crazies/con artists. (crazier than me, that is, and I am fairly harmless)
Regarding checking "me" out: I only post innocuous stuff to email lists, blogs, and facebook, so as far as I am aware I tend to
"blend in". The only thing I am not particularly proud of is getting kicked out of engineering school for failing to pass enough units.
My "heart" wasn't really in it at that stage. I later did a polytechnic engineering "certificate" course, and succeeded with that.
That course also covered thermodynamics and mechanics, and really hammered them into my head.
Later, I got bored with being stuck in the production engineering department at work, and went to study Bachelor of Commerce,
Informations Systems major, and ended up working in the Materials Management/Bills of Material/Process tracking area
as a Computer Programmer. Sort of a diversion, but I enjoyed it. Mechanical Engineering is now a hobby to me.
*/
And you don't seem to have a problem coming up with 'unusual stuff'. I'm not the first, according to you to disagree with you concepts, and probably won't be the last. I'm more into "usual stuff" things that are simple and work. Things that other things use, off the shelf things that work.

O: disagreement with concepts hasn't really been a problem- more disagreement on what an email group should be used for. I think I will be better
off in the "bulletin board/Forum" type of environment.

The emotor powered stabiliser concept is off the table for now. I am concentrating on making bids on smaller motorbikes, in a price range I can afford/ or borrow They have different customisation issues, like making nice revised seats, altering ride height, bodywork.

 

Starting point

 

Starting point View attachment 132137

For what? That would make a main drive motor for an entire motorcycle.
I don't think I am ready to get into full scale electric motorbikes yet.
1) big battery capacity is expensive.
2) batteries are not that durable.
3) I would like "supercharger" charging capacity to be readily available. You should be able to add 250 kms travel
capacity in 30 minutes. I think the new Chevy Bolt car claims about that.
4) I would like a "supercharger" home station- possibly charge the station battery continuously, transfer it to the
"vehicle" quickly.
I think setting a vehicle and a battery array to take "supercharging" would require a lot of knowhow- a good way to
create a major fire hazard, if not a potential "Bomb".

 

I think I will be better
off in the "bulletin board/Forum" type of environment.

You do understand that is the way this forum works don't you?

 

You do understand that is the way this forum works don't you?

O: yes? I was commenting on my problems with posting to email lists.
*** apparent rules for email groups (mc-chassis, Feet-Forward, MC-engines, Tilters - in that vein, anyway.)
1) no sequential threads where you are the only poster-ie "blogs".
They have to be conversational.
2) You get grizzled at for asking "lazy" questions, or not researching the accumulated body of literature. If I did that I would never
post anything-having been "there" for several years... !
3) preferably postings have to be "newsy" - ie about events, stuff you have actually made, interviews, test rides etc.
4) don't post a lot-it clutters up the digest reports with stuff practically nobody wants to read, or "wade through".
I find that a bit pointless, frustrating, and useless to me, so I tend to "break the rules", and get suspended from posting.

I also think that readers find some of my posts irritating, which is less of a problem on a forum: you just don't follow that thread, board,
or person.
Well, enough is enough. I am shifting elsewhere, and I suppose I should stop moaning about it.

 

shortbus I don't see how anyone could miss the picture of your bus.LOL
I thought this was about.
Not name calling shortbus was just trying to point things out and the rest of these post and not helping to get anywhere are they.
You but the controller that fits your needs and one that tells you it can be used with PWM.
Your needs is based on the motor you pick get a controller 30% to 50% higher rating.

O: Well, the topic is now wrong, I suppose, as the controller is no longer needed.

In fact, I don't think much of the discussion is about electrical devices at all-sort of a bit free-ranging within a somewhat-defined area?

My shortbus comments maybe were slightly OCD-ish on my part-I get that way sometimes-and not intended to be name-calling.