In the past; Automotive topics were prohibited by the forum terms of use - this thread is a glaring example of why.

You should probably hide your avatar while hinting that what's shown in the photos is an OK thing to do!

I'm trying to stop the TS winning a Darwin Award - you're goading them on...................

I see I wasn't very effective at making my point, I'm sorry. I know that Automotive topics were banned here in the past, and I was pretty vocal about my displeasure in that ban. I am glad that it is over. The reason why I didn't like that ban is because instead of helping people do things safely, we simply left them to their own devices which undoubtedly caused even more unsafe Automotive modifications then had we simply helped them out. I thought it was silly that the Forum had the perception of any liability in the matter.

So to make my point clear now, I simply wanted to find out exactly what the thread starter was trying to do and suggest the way to do it properly, as opposed to simply washing our hands of it. And now you have done just that, thank you very much. I hope you were not offended by my sarcasm; sometimes I get a little bit carried away.



I must agree that bundling 7 wires together to function as a starter cable is a terrible idea. I adamantly suggest that you obtain the proper cable and install it. If you were stranded on the side of the highway that is one thing but if this is going to be a permanent solution then do it the right way.

 

I'd forget about soldering a starter motor cable - and bundling 7 smaller wires.

If you haven't got the tools you need to do the job, another alternative is to obtain a clamp on eye lug from a welding equipment supplier, they can also sell you heavy cable fit for the job.

The more I see of this thread; the more I think you should obtain the starter cable as a service replacement part, and just fit it.

The blue wire going to the starter is actually the OEM wire and connector to the starter I got at the dealership. It works. That was one wire originally and is still one wire not.

Now the 7 wires already came off of one eyelet:

Yes yes I know. Don't use the speaker wires. I didn't. I used some 18G and 16G wire from Princess Auto.

That original eyelet had 7 wires attached to them. I am trying to correct the corrosion issue which is most likely hindering my ignition swtich from functioning properly.

So basically I had a no start issue and did a bunch of diagnoses.

Lack of voltage/power going to starter relay from ignition switch points in the direction of bad ignition switch or ground of ignition switch. I looked at the grounds leading to ignition switch in the wiring diagram and this is what I found:

My first attempt was to clean the wires but when I was finally able to get the eyelet out, it had no extension where I could pull it out of the engine. It was practically stuck down there. So no matter how many attempts I made to clean it, nothing was going to go down there. So I cut it and am planning to resolder. I just dropped 1600 on a new radiator and fan and 3 months later car doesn't start. I'm not going back to the stealership if I can help it.

If I could have just cleaned it, I would. No need to take unnecessary actions to fix something.

 

Well that is odd. I don't think I've ever seen an OEM bundle wires like that. Usually the starter is grounded to its body, thru the engine, back to the battery. The ground between engine and body is usually a braided strap.

I guess if that's the way the OEM did it then nobody can fault you for copying it. So you have my blessing (not that you need it) to forge on with what you're doing. Soon as you get your torch have fun. Just be careful make sure you don't get TOO big of torch and cause collateral damage.

Did you rule out the starter solenoid already?

 

Well that is odd. I don't think I've ever seen an OEM bundle wires like that. Usually the starter is grounded to its body, thru the engine, back to the battery. The ground between engine and body is usually a braided strap.

I guess if that's the way the OEM did it then nobody can fault you for copying it. So you have my blessing (not that you need it) to forge on with what you're doing. Soon as you get your torch have fun. Just be careful make sure you don't get TOO big of torch and cause collateral damage.

Did you rule out the starter solenoid already?

Yes that picture with the blue wire goes to the starter solenoid. That solder repair worked. That blue wire (should have been brown but I digress) with the connector connected to the starter solenoid fires up the engine when you give it power (from the starter relay port). So the starter is good. Everything with the starter is good.

However to start the car normally without bypassing the system the engine needs the ignition switch to send power to the starter relay. If no power goes to the relay then the car won't start.

When I give power to the starter relay it starts. So the ignition switch is the suspect. And the grounds that it led to (the picture I showed with blue corrosion) will cause the ignition switch not to function properly. The ignition switch won't close the circuit due to bad ground as I see it. Once the switch closes the car will start normally without bypassing it.

Thank you all for your positive feedback.

I appreciate your help and hope to get this done. There is no turning back now.

 

Oh, okay. I misunderstood. Thought that bundle was the starter ground. Even more bizarre to me now that your ignition switch has 7 bundled grounds. This is uncharted territory for me now, hope all goes well.

 

I don't think I've ever seen an OEM bundle wires like that.

I have. Nine ground wires in a single crimp. It took me all day to find that crimp had intermittent loss of continuity, but only on some of the wires. That's the kind of day when you earn your pay.

 

Tomorrow is the big day.

 

The blowtorch worked! The solder clumps on the wire started melting in like 2 seconds. It all melted down the eyelet.

Gravity helped me out this time.

Well, still alive in one piece and that was a piece of cake. Everything else took the whole day.

So yes. Good connection with eyelet now. The wires won't even budge at all when I test to see if there is play between the connection. All is good!

 

It's great when a plan comes together.

 

Well sorry to disappoint.

Looks like the car still won't start.

I even gave the car battery a boost because it was a bit low on voltage.

So either it was my connection to the eyelet, the new extension wires to the eyelet (which 5 of 7 wires were not 100% match - thus more resistance?), or I got a problem somewhere else.

Thanks everyone for all your feedback.

At least I know how to solder 7 wires in one now.

 

Well that is odd. I don't think I've ever seen an OEM bundle wires like that. Usually the starter is grounded to its body, thru the engine, back to the battery. The ground between engine and body is usually a braided strap.

I guess if that's the way the OEM did it then nobody can fault you for copying it. So you have my blessing (not that you need it) to forge on with what you're doing. Soon as you get your torch have fun. Just be careful make sure you don't get TOO big of torch and cause collateral damage.

Did you rule out the starter solenoid already?

The whole thing looks very dodgy!!!

Small motorcycle starter cables are bigger cross section than in that picture.

I'm not the slightest bit surprised it failed, and the earlier pictures of the TS's attempts at soldering a lug would've lasted mere seconds.

Its an outstanding example of where a thoughtfully done bodge could be much better than the original equipment.

I'd go with welding cable and clamp on eye lugs - these materials used to be available from car accessory shops, but went out of fashion about the 50s or 60s.

 

Just a quick question though.

Is it going to cause a big difference if I used 18G wire on a 20G wire?

5 of the 7 wires were 20G wires and I used 18G on them (all I could find at Princess Auto and the worker there said, "that's all they had.") I went to Part Source today and lo and behold there is a 20G wire!

The picture below shows on the left the 18G wire (with 19 strands) I used from Princess Auto compared to the 20G wire on the right (with 7 strands) I got from Part Source:

It seems however I might have just screwed by not using the exact matching wire from the original eyelet and wires (below picture). Both the wire from the original eyelet and the wire from the white roll match in 7 strands:

Is it a big deal to be off by 2G of wire?

If it is I might try to get back down in there and redo them again.

 

No, wire and sheet metal gauges are like golf the lower the number the better. 20G has more resistance than 18G. I worked in a GM company that made wire, all of their stuff was 19 strand in any gauge. The lower strand number just means it's stiffer. Have you checked all of your fuses and relays?

 

No, wire and sheet metal gauges are like golf the lower the number the better. 20G has more resistance than 18G. I worked in a GM company that made wire, all of their stuff was 19 strand in any gauge. The lower strand number just means it's stiffer. Have you checked all of your fuses and relays?

Yes. I found only 4 relays in the car. 2 are for the fan which I took out and 1 is for the starter relay and the other relay is the ASD. Below the picture shows the starter relay and ASD:

I checked all fuses with the Power Probe and all of the fuses are good.

I still have to do more diagnoses but as long as the wiring on the ground I just did is fine, then I can move on to other tests.

A summary so far:

- The starter motor when taken out and bench tested, works.
- The cables are good.
- Fuses are good.
- Relays are good. They click and show continuity when tested.
- Ignition switch is good. Test light (grounded) shows red light (power) going into the wire of ignition switch (with engine off or in crank) and shows power from the wire coming out to the relay during crank.
- Battery is good. Got it changed twice.
- PCM / antitheft / park/neutral switch is good because I can bypass the ignition system and the car will run with key turned in ignition.
- Once bypassing system and car runs, it can go for 10 minutes no problem and even charges up my battery voltage. That means that the alternator is good.

Basically every item in the wiring diagram is good. Unless I am missing something. Most likely a wiring connection (another bad ground maybe).

So I'll have to look at more grounds, do some more bypassing tests, and confirm 4 more plugs (left side of picture) that look like relays. Not too sure yet:

As long as the new wires have less resistance I am happy.

 

I may have missed it but what car only has 4 relays? And if you meant that you removed the cooling fans that may be part of the problem. As cars get more and more computerized, removing some essential items gets harder. The computers "test" many items that are essential, say cooling fans, if the correct response isn't given they won't start. To save from hurting the engine.

 

I may have missed it but what car only has 4 relays? And if you meant that you removed the cooling fans that may be part of the problem. As cars get more and more computerized, removing some essential items gets harder. The computers "test" many items that are essential, say cooling fans, if the correct response isn't given they won't start. To save from hurting the engine.

Alright. I will try that.

So far I was able to bypass the system in 3 different ways that let the car start.

I guess I should stop by-passing the system and add the fan back on for it to work properly.

Thank you. I will update new info!

Late out now so tomorrow morning first thing!

 

Over the week end I read elsewhere about a similar problem, may or may not be related to yours. Since I still don't know make of car. But, the problem asked about was a non or intermittent start problem. The answers were -

it could be a bad ignition key, certain cars had a "chip" that only allowed the correct key to work. Over time the key 'chip' goes bad so no start.

A car with remote door locks or a anti theft alarm, the engine immobilizer circuit can go bad, not allowing a start. This was very prone in Honda's.

 

I think I located the problem. The car is a 2009 PT Cruiser.

I re-installed the fan and nothing.

However, I did some more by-passing tests and found that back probing a wire into the ignition switch and placing the other wire in the starter relay with the relay partially in, I was able to start the car.

Which means that the wiring between the ignition switch and relay is no good. And there is a connector between the two which I had to bypass.

I'm going to have to do some volt drop tests to see which side its on.

Thanks for the feedback. I think you're right about it being ignition related.

 

And I think you'll find many more relays if you look, my 1999 Chevy truck has 10 or more in various little "boxes" some underhood and some in the end of the dash board. Before pulling harnesses apart I'd be looking for other relays and fuses, some fuses are even the inline type off by them selves. Does it have any fusible links? Usually a short orange colored wire near the positive battery cable, most times there is more than one.

 

Since you said it is a PT cruiser, have you been to that forum? Just about every make and model of vehicle has one these days. www.ptcruiserlinks.com/forum/ People are usually friendly and may have had the same problem.