According to this website, here are the battery and cell symbols, where a battery consists of more than one cell:

 

I can define VB to be whatever I want it to be, so long as I define it.

True, but it aids communication if people share a common definition.

If someone else wants to use definitions that are different from mine that is ok with me.

You mean, like the different definition posted above by someone named MrChips?

read this thread.

Ok, i read it. Seems consistent with the articles I posted.

VbB has been adopted to mean the supply voltage to the base, since the voltage between the base and the base is zero.

That explanation seems missing something. According to the article you shared, Vbb came to mean base to power supply not because Vb-Vb=0v, but because Vb-Vb=0v isn't a useful measurement. People decided, "Vb-Vb isn't a useful measurement, so let's decide Vbb will mean base-to-power." They knew it wasn't logical or consistent, they decided to give that notation a useful meaning (base-to-power), since it's logical meaning (0v) wasn't useful .

 

What would you expect to see if it were a AC signal. One alternator in the base circuit and two (or more) in the collector circuit?!

Wow, you can have 2 separate AC sources in the same circuit? Neat!

 

According to this website, here are the battery and cell symbols, where a battery consists of more than one cell:

View attachment 162088

That seems the most logical definition. Cell vs multicell battery, without saying how many cells, or what voltage.

 

The power grid is made up of a number of AC sources in the same circuit! Yeah, Wow!

 

The power grid is made up of a number of AC sources in the same circuit!

I guess thats why people with solar and wind collectors can put power back into the grid.

Do they have to be perfectly in phase?

Personally , I don't care how one represents a dc supply be it battery or generator. Its a symbol!!.

Not sure what you mean . The purpose of the symbols is to communicate . Can't communicate very well without agreed upon meanings.

The actual voltage required to do what it needs to do is governed by the requirements of the design.

Sort of like saying, "the voltage needed by the circuit, is the voltage the circuit needs." The question is, "what do the symbols represent"

What would you expect to see if it were a AC signal. One alternator in the base circuit and two (or more) in the collector circuit? I don't think so!

I don't understand enough about transistors to reply to that.

 

Thats also why coal fired and nuclear stations can put power into the grid. Yes, they MUST all be in phase.

I think that by now everyone who deals with electricity well understands what those symbols mean.

They "represent" a DC supply of magnitude designed for desired operation of the circuit.

There is a lot of information on transistor theory in books or on the web.

 

I think that by now everyone who deals with electricity well understands what those symbols mean. They represent" a DC supply of magnitude designed for desired operation of the circuit.

Seems to be some difference of opinion in this thread.

Also, are you saying the 2 different symbols are equivalent? That doesn't seem logical.

 

hi john,
If a drawing of a battery had to include a pair of plates for every 'voltage cell' it would not be practical.
You cannot infer the total voltage of a battery by the number of plates in a circuit diagram.
I use single pair and annotate the battery voltage alongside battery on the circuit drawing.
E

 

hi john,
If a drawing of a battery had to include a pair of plates for every 'voltage cell' it would not be practical.

Hi Eric , Yep, I mentioned that issue in a previous comment .

I use single pair and annotate the battery voltage alongside battery on the circuit drawing.
E

That makes sense to me, and isn't inconsistent with the definition posted by @crutschow : 1 plate for 1 cell, more than 1 plate for more than 1 cell .

 

hi john,
If I drew a circuit that was powered by a single AA battery and used a single pair of plates to represent the battery, it would still be a battery.

Paraphrasing what Sigmund Freud said: if it looks like a cigar and it smells like a cigar, its a cigar.

How I draw a battery depends upon the symbols the drawing program has available.
eg: LTSpice uses 2 pairs of plates for all batteries another programs uses 2 or 3 pairs.

It doesn't really matter, I would suggest one pair is sufficient with text indicating the voltage alongside is understood by most readers.

E

 

Seems to be some difference of opinion in this thread.

Also, are you saying the 2 different symbols are equivalent? That doesn't seem logical.

I understand your desire for perfect symbols and communication, but you're going to have to relax just a little. There are a lot of things in this world that aren't standardized, and many more that weren't standardized until they had been around for a long, long time.

No matter what you, or anyone else, thinks these symbols should mean, they are actually used in different ways, with different subtleties of meaning, constantly. If you wed yourself to the idea that they mean one single, specific, perfectly accurate thing, all you're going to do is confuse yourself when you come across the myriad exceptions to your chosen interpretation.

Both symbols represent some kind of voltage source. I think that's universally accepted.

Both symbols represent a chemical cell or combination of cells. We probably all agree on that, but you'll find schematics and simulations where these symbols are used to represent other voltages, like signal inputs, or the voltage from a solar cell, etc. So already there are exceptions.

Trying to glean any more than that from the symbol is madness. Perhaps the symbols should have had useful, distinct meanings, but in practice you can't count on it.

If you want to find the best and/or most common meaning so that you can standardize use in your own schematics, that's great. Good for you. But don't expect the rest of the world to fall in line.

 

In this common-emitter schematic, what's the symbol that looks like a battery with only 2 plates, marked Vbe?

According to this website, here are the battery and cell symbols, where a battery consists of more than one cell:

@johnyradio: Excellent trolling...
In such cases you should not ask people, but look in your country standard.
For example, Russian standard GOST 2.768-90 show that number of cells in circuit diagram may not be equal number of cells of real battery.
Below in picture from standard we can see 48V battery, plotted as one cell:

 

I understand your desire for perfect symbols

Just curious-- have you read all the posts in thread? I understand these particular symbols mean different things to different people. That's fine. I'm finding the general areas of agreement, and filtering out the illogical ones.Glad to bring your definition into the mix!

There are a lot of things in this world that aren't standardized

Ok, we can get philosophical if you want.

Seems to me, most schematic symbols are nonambiguous, and have clear, universally accepted meanings. Seems these particular symbols are atypical in that way. I'm cool with that.

The initial purpose of this thread, and still my goal, was actually not to find out the "standard" meaning, nor to collate a list of all possible meanings, but rather to find out what they mean in the schematic in the OP.

If you're saying the two symbols are equivalent in the schematic in the OP, I disagree. The author would not have done that.

Perhaps the symbols should have had useful, distinct meanings, but in practice you can't count on it.

I'm 100% sure the author of that schematic intends exactly one, specific, nonambiguous meaning for each symbol. Not "take your pick".

Both symbols represent some kind of voltage source. I think that's universally accepted.

I agree! So, you DO think there's a universal meaning

Both symbols represent a chemical cell or combination of cells. We probably all agree on that

Necessarily chemical? Necessarily a battery? Not simply "DC source"?

, but you'll find schematics and simulations where these symbols are used to represent other voltages, like signal inputs

Can you share an example of this symbol used for signal inputs? I don't think I've seen that.

 

Just curious-- have you read all the posts in thread? I understand these particular symbols mean different things to different people.

You are misinterpreting the responses.

So far, I will hazard a bet that all responders will agree on what a battery symbol (2 plates or multiple plates) mean to them.

You are the only one who is belaboring this non-issue.

 

Current state of the discussion:

In the schematic in the OP, the symbol with 1 cell labeled "Vbe" represents a DC voltage source. Not necessarily chemical. In the circuit, it represents a generalized base-bias supply.

the symbol with multiple cells represents a higher DC voltage source. In this schematic, it represents the supply for the collector and its load resistor.

In other schematics, not shown here, the above meanings may be represented with other symbols. Or the above symbols may have other meanings.

 

In the schematic in the OP, the symbol with 1 cell labeled "Vbe" represents a DC voltage source. Not necessarily chemical. In the circuit, it represents a generalized base-bias supply.

the symbol with multiple cells represents a higher DC voltage source. In this schematic, it represents the supply for the collector and its load resistor.

In other schematics, not shown here, the above meanings may be represented with other symbols. Or the above symbols may have other meanings.

I think you've got it.

 

Can you share an example of this symbol used for signal inputs? I don't think I've seen that.

Admittedly, that would be an especially silly use in my opinion. I don't think I've seen it from any reputable designer, but I've certainly seen simulation files (LTspice, etc) uploaded to forums like this one with a battery symbol where they should've used an arbitrary voltage source. The sim works the same either way, but the schematic is less readable.

I certainly wasn't endorsing that usage, just using it as an example of how flexibly some symbols are used, and pointing out that you must be ready to use context to interpret them. Sounds like you've got the idea, so I won't belabor the point any further.

 

The two symbols in the OP are generally understood to represent DC sources, where the one with multiple cells has a higher voltage than the one with one cell, when both appear in the same schematic.

They may indicate 1-cell vs multicell.

They dont indicate (without additional notation) precisely how many cells, or precisely what voltages.

They don't indicate technology of source, chemical or otherwise.

They don't represent signal inputs.

Symbols which are understood only by their author, are irrelevant and off topic, as the purpose of shared schematics is to communicate something understood by others.

 

hi john,
If a drawing of a battery had to include a pair of plates for every 'voltage cell' it would not be practical.
You cannot infer the total voltage of a battery by the number of plates in a circuit diagram.
I use single pair and annotate the battery voltage alongside battery on the circuit drawing.
E

Yeah, imagine years ago when 45 and 90 volt "B" batteries were shown in circuit designs. Making 30 or 60 individual cells up would have made for some long batteries.

Ron