Part of learning is failing.

Don't just read about electronic theory. Build things both from Do-It-Yourself examples and (eventually) from your own designs.

Most likely, the project won't work the first time. This is where the real learning starts.

 

You sure it wasn't the publishers excuse for typo's?
Max.

Guess we'll never know

 

Thanks for taking the time to explain your preferences. Knowing your reasoning makes it easier to see the pros and cons of Arduino systems for anyone trying to decide what they want to do.

Many Arduino platforms may be underpowered by today's standards, but a lot of projects don't need fast processors or lots of RAM. A Ferrari may perform better than a Ford Taurus, but if all you're doing is driving to the grocery store it doesn't really matter.

The rest of your arguments all remind me of a fairly standard disagreement in many teaching fields - something along the lines of deciding between teaching perfect fundamentals in the right order, vs starting easy and fun and filling in the hard details later. To me, both approaches have merit.

It may be true that someone working on an electrical engineering degree needs theory and fundamentals from day one, and that an Arduino would just be a distraction. On the other hand, if you're learning for fun with no specific plans to make a career of this, getting the satisfaction of quick success may be the difference between giving up on electronics vs. maintaining interest and developing a life long hobby.

It's worth noting that starting on an Arduino doesn't prevent you from going back and learning core skills in electronics or programming. In my case, everything I learned in my first couple years was built around Arduinos, but I was learning about circuits and learning to write my own code from the very start, because the specific projects I wanted to build didn't exist yet. Having an Arduino didn't prevent me from learning about circuits, it just saved my from the hassle of having to learn EVERYTHING before I could do ANYTHING. I didn't want to spend months just blinking LEDs - I wanted to build and customize my espresso machine, so I did. Since then, I've learned tons more, but I never would've started, much less kept going, without the kick start that the Arduino and its supportive community provided.

Enough about me - I don't disagree that there are many advantages to learning things right the first time, avoiding "crutches" like the Arduino environment, but I don't think that's the only right way to approach it. I think it ultimately depends on the person's ultimate goals, and their learning style.

Its not a matter of preference, engineering and housebuilding begin from the foundation, not like a doctor where if he makes a mistake it does not matters. Arduino is like a patched house that works, yes, but there are reasons why houses are not built on sand. On top of that its gaining popularity (95% amongst programmers, 5% among hardware developers). The only method to learn is to begin from the start, this that you are mentioning, "a kick of arduino", is actually a very bad method. It causes wholes in the knowledge and tomorrow the "expert" pilot crashes the plane. Yes it will work, it will work maybe in 95% of the cases, but in the other 5, a big problem will occur. This is why you must keep your distance when driving, you must not yell in a factory because 1 time someone will get hurt badly or die.

Everyone chooses to do easy things and when a real expert comes, they become haters, because they do not know and can not solve the problem. There are situations in which I have increased production by 50% with knowing what I am doing and how to repair the machines, yet those who were there from years, only hate, because they are "experts" but they can not!

 

I disparage Arduino - calling it Ardy-Weenie. But I'm an old poop! In reality, I think buying an Arduino and a bunch of boards that do things has great potential as a learning tool for electronics. It really depends on how you approach it. If you look at each project board with the attitude of trying to understand what the components on the board do and how those components work, I think you'll come away with a lot of valuable knowledge. Plus, boards that do things make it more fun, in my opinion. As you learn more, you may find yourself asking why use a microcontroller when 50 cents worth of common part would do the job just as well. When you get to that point you are developing a comprehensive view and a critical approach - which leads right into designing things yourself.

The only thing I would caution against is getting too bogged down in trying to figure out why the circuit designer chose particular components and particular values. When you know something has been designed by someone with a high level of expertise, this can be valuable. My impression is that a lot of the Arduino boards are designed by people who are reasonably competent but not experts, and what they do may not be what an expert would.

I consulted for a company whose senior electronics engineer wanted to do everything with microprocessors. I used to do designs entirely in analog, partly just to annoy him. I've designed processors into lots of things, too.

If you have an interest in analog circuitry, I very strongly recommend reading everything the late Jim Williams of Linear Technology wrote. I regard his ap notes as some of the very best in the entire industry. He didn't just show people how to put some Linear Tech parts together to do something - he taught people all about the not only the circuits, but how to use lab instruments to measure things and where limitations of instruments lay. The late Bob Pease of (most recently) National Semiconductor wrote lots of good stuff, too, but much of it in books. There are plenty of good things from Analog Devices, too (Linear Tech is part of AD, now).

I haven't been following this thread, but if it hasn't been recommended, get your free copy of the simulation program LTspice from Linear Tech (Analog Devices). Simulations can be fun to play with and one of the best parts is you get the equivalent of a lab full of instruments - you can look at voltages and currents throughout the circuit and do plots and calculations. There are several people on AAC who are very good with LTspice and very good at being patient and helpful. Like everything, there is a learning curve.

Ignore mythical beings.

~~~
With regard to PIC processors - I've put 'em in a lot of things. I don't like 'em much, but I started using PICs at a time when Intel, AMD and Motorola were either getting out of microcontrollers, couldn't deliver or simply no longer cared (Motorola!) about anything outside of automotive aps.

 

Its not a matter of preference, engineering and housebuilding begin from the foundation, not like a doctor where if he makes a mistake it does not matters. Arduino is like a patched house that works, yes, but there are reasons why houses are not built on sand. On top of that its gaining popularity (95% amongst programmers, 5% among hardware developers). The only method to learn is to begin from the start, this that you are mentioning, "a kick of arduino", is actually a very bad method. It causes wholes in the knowledge and tomorrow the "expert" pilot crashes the plane. Yes it will work, it will work maybe in 95% of the cases, but in the other 5, a big problem will occur. This is why you must keep your distance when driving, you must not yell in a factory because 1 time someone will get hurt badly or die.

Everyone chooses to do easy things and when a real expert comes, they become haters, because they do not know and can not solve the problem. There are situations in which I have increased production by 50% with knowing what I am doing and how to repair the machines, yet those who were there from years, only hate, because they are "experts" but they can not!

Fair enough. I'll just agree to disagree, not about the importance of learning the fundamentals, but about how to get there.

I asked you to explain your arguments and your point of view, and you've done that, so thank you!

 

You will learn nothing from Arduino

I have to disagree with this. I have found the arduino an amazing stepping stone with understanding how a IC works and also the basis for C++. I still use this for projects that are very basic but have now moved onto stm32 IC's due to there speed for LCDs. Because of this I've actually been 'forced' to learn how to control the registers and read and understand the data sheets. YouTube was a wonderful resource for this.

So my 2 pence worth is if you want a taste of what you can do with IC's and especially for the younger generation, it makes it more fun. The arduino is a great 'plug and play' way to learn the basics and then you can expand on what you need to know when you come across your natural path of problems.

Good luck and have fun!

 

My story when I learned electronics is practicing. I practiced with every circuit I have. I also go to my professor lab to find more actual working things. I am a newbie with little theory knowledge, but I think I learned something

 

I have to disagree with this. I have found the arduino an amazing stepping stone with understanding how a IC works and also the basis for C++. I still use this for projects that are very basic but have now moved onto stm32 IC's due to there speed for LCDs. Because of this I've actually been 'forced' to learn how to control the registers and read and understand the data sheets. YouTube was a wonderful resource for this.

So my 2 pence worth is if you want a taste of what you can do with IC's and especially for the younger generation, it makes it more fun. The arduino is a great 'plug and play' way to learn the basics and then you can expand on what you need to know when you come across your natural path of problems.

Good luck and have fun!

Your post is controversial!

Not until you started dealing with stm32 did you begin to study the registers and datasheet! These are fundamental things, without which you know nothing of microcontrollers!

 

Your post is controversial!
...

Controversial in your mind. Several people who have demonstrated levels of knowledge and ability far beyond anything I've ever seen you demonstrate at AAC disagree with you.

 

Your post is controversial!

I agree, they are fundamental but with arduino the libraries are written for most sensors, lcd's, encoders, etc... This allows you to have fun learning the structure of code writing with while loops and if statements instead of reading through hundreds of pages of datasheets.

End of the day with arduino you can learn it as much or as little as you want and still get results.

 

End of the day with arduino you can learn it as much or as little as you want and still get results.

Until you are faced with building and interfacing to something no one has made a shield for. Then you have to start learning electronics.

Bob

 

Until you are faced with building and interfacing to something no one has made a shield for. Then you have to start learning electronics.

Bob

But that's a pretty fair description of engineering and science in general. We start out learning how to do all kinds of things using tools and techniques to solve problems that have been solved time and time again. Then we start using the skills and knowledge to solve pretty similar problems. But eventually we are faced with a problem that no one has solved before and then it is time to really start learning stuff, relying on all the prior work to prepare for that journey.

 

But that's a pretty fair description of engineering and science in general. We start out learning how to do all kinds of things using tools and techniques to solve problems that have been solved time and time again. Then we start using the skills and knowledge to solve pretty similar problems. But eventually we are faced with a problem that no one has solved before and then it is time to really start learning stuff, relying on all the prior work to prepare for that journey.

Not really. When I studied physics, I had to solve many problems others had solved before, it was not simply learning the solutions.

Bob

 

Not really. When I studied physics, I had to solve many problems others had solved before, it was not simply learning the solutions.

Bob

Isn't that what I just said -- you learned how to solve many problems that had been solved over and over before you.

For instance, you almost certainly had to solve the problem of what angle a cannon should be elevated in order to get the longest range in a nice flat world without air resistance. But, assuming you did this before you had taken calculus, you probably used equations of motion that had been given to you and you solved it by combining those equations to get the answer. But, like that Ardiuno, the problems you can solve that way are limited because the equations of which you are aware have limiting assumptions and constrained behind them. Eventually you had to learn more fundamental concepts, including calculus, that allowed you to derive the equations of motion you had used previously and thus to solve problems that are beyond the application of those equations.

 

It has stood the test of time, ~110yrs old now!
Max.

Yes, Max, the Erector set was cool. The big difference is that it is easy to see exactly what is going on with what you have built, per instructions, or modified to be different. And when something did not work it was fairly clear as to why it did not work. But using a micro and looking at an A/D converter output per some recipe is a lot different from using a comparator and watching the output snap from zero to Vcc as an input voltage passes the reference voltage. Besides that, understanding how a program functions is different from understanding how a circuit functions. Programming is programming, it is not circuit creating at all. It is fine for folks to learn to program, but it is not learning how a circuit functions. AND, programming is not learning about electronics.

 

I had a conversation with a fellow colleague, who is also interested in electronics. We are both pretty much at the same stage, just getting into this hobby.

We talked about Arduino, we both own one, but haven't really started playing with it yet. I said there are like a 100 projects in the book, just to get things started. He thought following those projects was just like just following a recipe, and not really a learning experience. It's as if though he thought it was cheating, if you followed an instruction, and things had to be made from scratch (I'm sure he didn't include IC's)

This got me thinking. What is the "best" way to get into this hobby? Do you first sit down and read about what a resistor, capacitor, transistor ect. ect. is, and then you progress forward?

Hello there,

Well let me welcome you then to the world of electronics

I know some people who did not know anything about electronics until after they started fooling around with Arduino, like the Uno. After that, their natural curiosity got them into reading more about some of the parts on the boards and how the external add on boards work, and especially how LEDs work. So your natural wonder will probably jump start you deeper into the ideas behind the scenes.

It also depends on your predisposition toward the subject matter. You may just want a casual working knowledge of circuits in which case you can read up on some typical circuits and go from there. Many people start with just simply driving LEDs with resistors and batteries, then maybe audio circuits, some go into RF circuits, and that's where you get your hands-on experience. You can then pick up books that show you how to analyze circuits from first principles, but that also depends on how much math you have had in the past. The more math you have had, the easier it will be for you to learn how to anlayze circuits, although algebra will get you pretty far with a lot of stuff.
There are also free simulators like LT Spice that you can download for free and start building circuits on your computer screen and see how they work like that.

For myself i could not stop at simply knowing various circuits so i went to school to becomes a scientist. I also started my own library of which i probably have some 200 or more books. In fact, that's a good way to learn too, by getting books that interest you, or just reading online. You can find a lot of information these days online that i didnt have when i was growing up.

Also, you can always ask right here as there are many people here who like to help.

I could not read all the posts before posting this (some 50 or more) so if i repeated anyone's posts i have to apologize.

 

Yes, Max, the Erector set was cool. The big difference is that it is easy to see exactly what is going on with what you have built, per instructions, or modified to be different. And when something did not work it was fairly clear as to why it did not work. .

I am not sure why you would appear to belittle or minimise the possible ability for reasoning of an 8year old.?
Everyone starts somewhere in life the lessons learned carry you through life.
I see no difference in my early reasoning and experiences of using a 'simple' erector set and my later learned conclusion when faced with difficult conclusions in life.
I have no regrets whatsoever.
Bravo Meccano!!
Max.

 

I see no difference in my early reasoning and experiences of using a 'simple' erector set and my later learned conclusion when faced with difficult conclusions in life.

I agree.

In my case, it was Tinker Toys and after building all of the things the instructions had, what I built was mainly limited by my imagination. The same could be said of Legos. I had more fun playing with them with my kids than I did when I was a child/teen.

 

I am not sure why you would appear to belittle or minimise the possible ability for reasoning of an 8year old.?
Everyone starts somewhere in life the lessons learned carry you through life.
I see no difference in my early reasoning and experiences of using a 'simple' erector set and my later learned conclusion when faced with difficult conclusions in life.
I have no regrets whatsoever.
Bravo Meccano!!
Max.

I don't see anywhere in my comment anything minimising the reasoning abilities of anybody of any age group. None at all. Mechanical systems have a very real advantage in the visibility area, erector sets even more so, because of their easy to see size. Or, it may be that you were responding to some other post than mine.

 

I agree.

In my case, it was Tinker Toys and after building all of the things the instructions had, what I built was mainly limited by my imagination. The same could be said of Legos. I had more fun playing with them with my kids than I did when I was a child/teen.

Tinker Toys has instructions?!

Since nearly all of my toys, Tinker Toys, Legos, Lincoln Logs, etc. (actually, pretty much no etc. for those kinds of toys), were hand me downs from some neighborhood kid, I just got a bunch of pieces parts. So it was imagination-only from the get go -- and I went to town, especially with the Legos, even though I had very few special shapes beyond rectangular solids. But so what -- that was an entire universe for someone at that age. I don't know what age I was when I learned about the notion of an Erector set -- but I sure would have killed for one!

I did get a 65-in-1 Radio Shack Electronics Kit for Christmas one year (I was 6 or 7) and that, of course, had the instructions. I built every circuit in there, even if I didn't understand what the point of many of them was -- what the heck was this NAND gate, for heaven's sake, and possible value could it have? None-the-less, it was HIGHLY influential in my life.