Voltage and Current w/in a 9V battery vs. Voltage and Current Produced by Transduction

Ya’akov

Joined Jan 27, 2019
10,307
The difference between a chemical cell and a transducer is a chemical cell works by using a chemical process to create an imbalance of charge between its terminals which can then be made to do work and a transducer converts mechanical energy into electrical charge. In the case of a guitar pickup, the motion of the string produces an alternating current which matches the sinusoidal motion of the string.

While the direct current of the chemical cell flows in one direction until the potential is eliminated, the transducer produces current that alternates between positive and negative polarities in proportion to the amplitude of the strings motion. That alternating current is an analog of the compression and rarifaction of the air that allows you to hear the string.
 

nsaspook

Joined Aug 27, 2009
16,486
To the OP, I would prefer not to use water analogies and instead take the time and effort to just memorize the material at first so you can work simple problems. In my water reservoir gravitational analogy the energy is all coming from the potential energy of the water mass height. The source of the potential energy was the external force (kinetic energy) used to bring the water to that height.
https://www.texasgateway.org/resource/184-electric-potential

A simple demo of the conversion from gravitational PE to KE is the magnet in a copper tube slowing down as it falls. Using a simple field view of electricity makes this example easily understandable with simple laws.
 

Thread Starter

Dolmetscher007

Joined Mar 21, 2019
36
If you understood my post to say that current does not flow........then my comments serve no purpose here.

I wouldn't know how to write any clearer. Rotation is an easy concept for most.

Good luck.
Ahhh... I didn’t see where you said “without”. I read your post to say, “An electron cannot flow out of a battery just as one can’t flow into one.”
What you actually said was that electrons cannot flow out of a battery WITHOUT one flowing into the battery.

My apologies for misreading. Your tone with “is an easy concept for most,” is arrogant, but, I guess that’s what I get for being the n00bie.
 

crutschow

Joined Mar 14, 2008
38,842
You can only measure a voltage between two nodes."? Or are you saying, "You must have two nodes in order for a voltage to exist."? Just to make sure I am understanding the term "Nodes" properly, I created this little circuit schematic and laid out what I consider to be its nodes:
I mean, by definition, a voltage only exists between two nodes.
You can't have a voltage at one node.
You diagram does show 3 nodes.
So, are you saying that the only way that you can describe "voltage" is by comparing the measurement of some value that exists within the wire of node 1 with the measurement of the same value that exists within the wire of node 2?
I'm saying that the "measurement" is always (referenced) between two nodes.
A voltage does not "exist within the wire node" by itself, it is only a voltage as compared (referenced) to another node.
(Note that meters to measure a voltage have two probes. You can't measure a voltage with just one probe.)
When you say the voltage at node 3 is 5V, there is an implication that it is referenced to some other node (typically common or ground in a circuit).
A voltage at a node has no meaning without a reference point that it is being measured to.
Current is a rate. Correct? 1 Amp describes 1 Coulomb of electrons passing a fixed point every second. amps = (coulombs per second). A watt is a joule every second. One measures force and the other a quantity, right?
None of those measure "force".
The closest to force in the electrical world is voltage.
To summarize a few basics:
1 coulomb/sec = 1 ampere
1 volt /1 ohm = 1 ampere
1 ampere * 1 volt = 1 watt of power
1 watt = 1 joule of energy per second
Your tone with “is an easy concept for most,” is arrogant, but, I guess that’s what I get for being the n00bie.
Don't let the other poster's disparaging comments bother you.
Some of them don't seem to understand how difficult it can be sometimes to understand the basic concepts of electricity. ;)
 
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nsaspook

Joined Aug 27, 2009
16,486
I will never say it's “an easy concept for most” because it's not. My post were mainly about how to structure your thinking of electrical concepts in the most compatible way with advanced concepts when learning. This does take more effort but the long-term benefits are worth it.
 

BR-549

Joined Sep 22, 2013
4,928
I would think most of us observe, ride, use and produce rotations, while growing up.

Everybody should understand a rotation. Two perpendicular rotations are a little harder.
 

MrChips

Joined Oct 2, 2009
35,198
Oh Boy! So much to unpack! I LOVE this.
Here are my two cents worth.

Let's drop the water analogy altogether. It is just likely to get us into hot water.
In the long run, it is just as easy to explain electricity on its own terms. I have gone this route many times before right here on AAC.

Firstly, understand electrical potential and voltage.
Voltage is a measure of the difference between two potentials. Voltage is like distance.

It is meaningless to ask, "What is the distance at New York City?"
You may ask, "What is the distance between Miami and New York City?"
Now we can answer that question.

Similarly, we cannot ask, "What is the voltage at point-A?"
In circuit terminology we call point-A a node.
However, we can ask, "What is the voltage between node-A and node-B?"

If you can grasp this concept you are off to a good start.
 

Ya’akov

Joined Jan 27, 2019
10,307
In line with @MrChips, I would contend the best analogy for electrical circuits and their attributes is electrical circuits. While I might resort to a water analogy at the very outset, or use an analogy from a specific domain familiar to the student to start, it is only to let them get their feet and then it must be discarded.

As a way of allowing them to get their mental bearings in a sea of interrelated but physically unique new ideas, some analogy which must be dismissed as "but that's not how it works at all" is useful, possibly necessary, at the outset. But unlike other areas where analogies can be used as reasoning tools, in electrical concepts any analogy based on everyday experience breaks down quickly and in unexpected ways.

I still use water or something else to get them thinking in the general direction, then switch to simple math (e.g.: Ohm's Law), math being the only analog that is consistent and complete. If a person will never work with circuits, the water analogy will probably serve them, if they will, it will hinder them unless it is mercilessly thrown away in the first 20 minutes.
 
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MisterBill2

Joined Jan 23, 2018
28,358
This whole conversation, which I just saw this morning, seems like a rather large waste of time. Those with problems with the descriptions should go back and read some books on the fundamentals of both physics and electricity, and then quit trying to argue about things.
Some discussions serve only t produce a lot more heat than light, and this certainly seems to be one of them.
 

nsaspook

Joined Aug 27, 2009
16,486
This whole conversation, which I just saw this morning, seems like a rather large waste of time. Those with problems with the descriptions should go back and read some books on the fundamentals of both physics and electricity, and then quit trying to argue about things.
Some discussions serve only t produce a lot more heat than light, and this certainly seems to be one of them.
Heat is what you need when cold and on the path to the source of the light.
 

Lo_volt

Joined Apr 3, 2014
374
  • How the hell does a guitar pickup actually work on an electron level?
  • What does neutral, negative, and ground mean?
Dolmetscher007, if you are still reading, guitar pickups typically have a coil and a magnet. The vibrating string over the pickup causes the magnetic field to change, of course at the rate at which the string is vibrating. A changing magnetic field through a coil will induce current through the coil. This is the same concept as and alternator or generator. What is coming out of the pickup is a voltage generated by the vibrating string. It's a very small signal and needs to be amplified in order to be used.

Neutral is generally only used in working with mains power. In the US, it's connected to ground. It is separate from ground because neutral carries the return current from the hot wire (120v in the US). Your household ground is not supposed to carry current under normal circumstances, that's the duty of the neutral wire. The ground exists to carry current during fault conditions.

Negative is just the lower voltage terminal of a battery or power supply. It can be grounded as in the case of an automobile. It is not always grounded and that depends on how it is used. In in working with operational amplifiers it's useful to have a voltage that extends below ground as well as one that extends above ground, e.g. +/-15 volts.

Ground is a bit confusing. For residential mains power, as mentioned above, it's a separate conductor used for carrying current during fault conditions.
In electronics, ground represents an easy to use reference point from which power supplies for the circuitry are measured. This can simplify design calculations. Quite often this reference point is connected to the chassis of a given device. The chassis, in turn, may be connected to the mains ground. This depends on the function of the device and the purpose of grounding it. Radio transmitters and receivers create a ground plane as part of their antenna construction. Industrial devices may use the chassis ground in the same way as mains grounds, only during fault conditions, i.e. if a high voltage wire were to short to the chassis, it should blow a fuse or circuit breaker to disable the device due to the short (fault). Ground is usually at 0 volts.
 
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