Utah Energy Storage Project

Thread Starter

killivolt

Joined Jan 10, 2010
800
https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnpa...age-project-planned-for-utah/?sh=1ea02b68a5ed

'World's Biggest' Energy Storage Project Planned For Utah

The hydrogen storage element of the scheme is part of a broader strategy by Mitsubishi Hitachi Power Systems (MHPS). The company has developed a gas turbine for power plants that can operate efficiently with a mixture of natural gas and hydrogen. It has sketched out a technology roadmap that will eventually see a gas turbine using exclusively hydrogen. If the electrolysis used to create the hydrogen is powered by renewables, then that hydrogen can be considered a renewable energy source.



“In California and other states in the western United States, which will soon have retired all of their coal-fired power generation, we need the next step in decarbonization. Mixing natural gas and storage, and eventually using 100% renewable storage, is that next step,” said Paul Browning, president and CEO of MHPS Americas. “When we add gas turbines powered with renewable hydrogen to a hydrogen storage salt-dome, we have a solution that stores and generates electricity with zero carbon emissions.”
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drc_567

Joined Dec 29, 2008
1,109
... If hydrogen is stored, just be sure to exclude the element Oxygen from the salt dome storage space. Otherwise, it could be an explosive catastrophe.
 

schmitt trigger

Joined Jul 12, 2010
438
My exact thinking.
How are they going to flush the salt cave from all oxygen before actually pumping the hydrogen?

There must be a way, al though I don’t see a simple one.
 

shortbus

Joined Sep 30, 2009
8,568
You guys worry about this and yet the forum still allows and helps a member make a hydrolysis power supply using AC and very high(ignition coil) voltage. That's a bomb waiting to go off.
 

Thread Starter

killivolt

Joined Jan 10, 2010
800
Road Map

But Siemens’ roadmap stands out specifically because it extends across its portfolio—from its smallest aeroderivative gas turbines to its behemoth heavy-duty gas turbines—and it seeks to achieve the 100% leap over only 10 years. As the company explained in a recent white paper, the ambitious move is rooted in confidence that several gas turbine models can already operate on high percentages of hydrogen fuel, with the specific capability of a unit depending on model and the type of combustion system (Figure 1).
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nsaspook

Joined Aug 27, 2009
8,382
Just remember the H2 is not a fuel, it's a lossy energy storage media that typically uses a fuel for extracting hydrogen from fossil fuels, or by using electricity to split it from water. Using the electrical energy directly is a lot more efficient.

https://phys.org/news/2006-12-hydrogen-economy-doesnt.html
In a recent study, fuel cell expert Ulf Bossel explains that a hydrogen economy is a wasteful economy. The large amount of energy required to isolate hydrogen from natural compounds (water, natural gas, biomass), package the light gas by compression or liquefaction, transfer the energy carrier to the user, plus the energy lost when it is converted to useful electricity with fuel cells, leaves around 25% for practical use — an unacceptable value to run an economy in a sustainable future. Only niche applications like submarines and spacecraft might use hydrogen.

“More energy is needed to isolate hydrogen from natural compounds than can ever be recovered from its use,” Bossel explains to PhysOrg.com. “Therefore, making the new chemical energy carrier form natural gas would not make sense, as it would increase the gas consumption and the emission of CO2. Instead, the dwindling fossil fuel reserves must be replaced by energy from renewable sources.”
 

Thread Starter

killivolt

Joined Jan 10, 2010
800
It’s about emissions and reduction, sequestering is part of the key of production, one element if you will, the next is to increase efficiency and output capacity. If models meet expectations we will see combinations of off peek storage needed for solar or wind farm generation off peek production is in part an issue for these emerging technologies. Each step looking for cost effective measures. The sequestered Co2 is only by in large one aspect of energy production forward in our driven environment of Co2 reduction Globally. All I see is more jobs in Utah and higher paying salaries. In the southern part of the state plagued by drug use in isolated low income communities.

https://www.purdue.edu/uns/html4ever/0007.Groll.CO2.html

The development of a mathematical "correlation," a tool that will enable engineers to design heat exchangers – the radiator-like devices that release heat to the environment after it has been absorbed during cooling – for future carbon dioxide-based systems. The mathematical correlation developed at Purdue, which will be published in a popular engineering handbook, enables engineers to determine how large a heat exchanger needs to be to provide cooling for a given area.

• The development of a new method enabling engineers to predict the effects of lubricating oils on the changing pressure inside carbon dioxide-based air conditioners. Understanding the drop in pressure caused by the oil, which mixes with the refrigerant and lubricates the compressor, is vital to predicting how well an air conditioner will perform.

Although carbon dioxide is a global-warming gas, conventional refrigerants called hydrofluorocarbons cause about 1,400 times more global warming than the same quantity of carbon dioxide. Meanwhile, the tiny quantities of carbon dioxide that would be released from air conditioners would be insignificant, compared to the huge amounts produced from burning fossil fuels for energy and transportation, says Eckhard Groll, an associate professor of mechanical engineering at Purdue.
kv
 

shortbus

Joined Sep 30, 2009
8,568
ust remember the H2 is not a fuel, it's a lossy energy storage media that typically uses a fuel for extracting hydrogen from fossil fuels, or by using electricity to split it from water. Using the electrical energy directly is a lot more efficient.

And the only people doing it like that are DIY home guys looking for overunity. Before I get slammed yet again for calling this out I'll give a link. Industrially it, hydrogen, is made from natural gas using steam. https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/hydrogen-production-natural-gas-reforming
 
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