Utah Energy Storage Project

Thread Starter

killivolt

Joined Jan 10, 2010
829
https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnpa...age-project-planned-for-utah/?sh=1ea02b68a5ed

'World's Biggest' Energy Storage Project Planned For Utah

The hydrogen storage element of the scheme is part of a broader strategy by Mitsubishi Hitachi Power Systems (MHPS). The company has developed a gas turbine for power plants that can operate efficiently with a mixture of natural gas and hydrogen. It has sketched out a technology roadmap that will eventually see a gas turbine using exclusively hydrogen. If the electrolysis used to create the hydrogen is powered by renewables, then that hydrogen can be considered a renewable energy source.



“In California and other states in the western United States, which will soon have retired all of their coal-fired power generation, we need the next step in decarbonization. Mixing natural gas and storage, and eventually using 100% renewable storage, is that next step,” said Paul Browning, president and CEO of MHPS Americas. “When we add gas turbines powered with renewable hydrogen to a hydrogen storage salt-dome, we have a solution that stores and generates electricity with zero carbon emissions.”
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drc_567

Joined Dec 29, 2008
1,156
... If hydrogen is stored, just be sure to exclude the element Oxygen from the salt dome storage space. Otherwise, it could be an explosive catastrophe.
 

schmitt trigger

Joined Jul 12, 2010
496
My exact thinking.
How are they going to flush the salt cave from all oxygen before actually pumping the hydrogen?

There must be a way, al though I don’t see a simple one.
 

shortbus

Joined Sep 30, 2009
9,318
You guys worry about this and yet the forum still allows and helps a member make a hydrolysis power supply using AC and very high(ignition coil) voltage. That's a bomb waiting to go off.
 

Thread Starter

killivolt

Joined Jan 10, 2010
829
Road Map

But Siemens’ roadmap stands out specifically because it extends across its portfolio—from its smallest aeroderivative gas turbines to its behemoth heavy-duty gas turbines—and it seeks to achieve the 100% leap over only 10 years. As the company explained in a recent white paper, the ambitious move is rooted in confidence that several gas turbine models can already operate on high percentages of hydrogen fuel, with the specific capability of a unit depending on model and the type of combustion system (Figure 1).
kv1621474278757.jpeg
 

nsaspook

Joined Aug 27, 2009
9,433
Just remember the H2 is not a fuel, it's a lossy energy storage media that typically uses a fuel for extracting hydrogen from fossil fuels, or by using electricity to split it from water. Using the electrical energy directly is a lot more efficient.

https://phys.org/news/2006-12-hydrogen-economy-doesnt.html
In a recent study, fuel cell expert Ulf Bossel explains that a hydrogen economy is a wasteful economy. The large amount of energy required to isolate hydrogen from natural compounds (water, natural gas, biomass), package the light gas by compression or liquefaction, transfer the energy carrier to the user, plus the energy lost when it is converted to useful electricity with fuel cells, leaves around 25% for practical use — an unacceptable value to run an economy in a sustainable future. Only niche applications like submarines and spacecraft might use hydrogen.

“More energy is needed to isolate hydrogen from natural compounds than can ever be recovered from its use,” Bossel explains to PhysOrg.com. “Therefore, making the new chemical energy carrier form natural gas would not make sense, as it would increase the gas consumption and the emission of CO2. Instead, the dwindling fossil fuel reserves must be replaced by energy from renewable sources.”
 

Thread Starter

killivolt

Joined Jan 10, 2010
829
It’s about emissions and reduction, sequestering is part of the key of production, one element if you will, the next is to increase efficiency and output capacity. If models meet expectations we will see combinations of off peek storage needed for solar or wind farm generation off peek production is in part an issue for these emerging technologies. Each step looking for cost effective measures. The sequestered Co2 is only by in large one aspect of energy production forward in our driven environment of Co2 reduction Globally. All I see is more jobs in Utah and higher paying salaries. In the southern part of the state plagued by drug use in isolated low income communities.

https://www.purdue.edu/uns/html4ever/0007.Groll.CO2.html

The development of a mathematical "correlation," a tool that will enable engineers to design heat exchangers – the radiator-like devices that release heat to the environment after it has been absorbed during cooling – for future carbon dioxide-based systems. The mathematical correlation developed at Purdue, which will be published in a popular engineering handbook, enables engineers to determine how large a heat exchanger needs to be to provide cooling for a given area.

• The development of a new method enabling engineers to predict the effects of lubricating oils on the changing pressure inside carbon dioxide-based air conditioners. Understanding the drop in pressure caused by the oil, which mixes with the refrigerant and lubricates the compressor, is vital to predicting how well an air conditioner will perform.

Although carbon dioxide is a global-warming gas, conventional refrigerants called hydrofluorocarbons cause about 1,400 times more global warming than the same quantity of carbon dioxide. Meanwhile, the tiny quantities of carbon dioxide that would be released from air conditioners would be insignificant, compared to the huge amounts produced from burning fossil fuels for energy and transportation, says Eckhard Groll, an associate professor of mechanical engineering at Purdue.
kv
 

shortbus

Joined Sep 30, 2009
9,318
ust remember the H2 is not a fuel, it's a lossy energy storage media that typically uses a fuel for extracting hydrogen from fossil fuels, or by using electricity to split it from water. Using the electrical energy directly is a lot more efficient.

And the only people doing it like that are DIY home guys looking for overunity. Before I get slammed yet again for calling this out I'll give a link. Industrially it, hydrogen, is made from natural gas using steam. https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/hydrogen-production-natural-gas-reforming
 
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nsaspook

Joined Aug 27, 2009
9,433
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ese3.956

How green is blue hydrogen?
This best-case scenario for producing blue hydrogen, using renewable electricity instead of natural gas to power the processes, suggests to us that there really is no role for blue hydrogen in a carbon-free future. Greenhouse gas emissions remain high, and there would also be a substantial consumption of renewable electricity, which represents an opportunity cost. We believe the renewable electricity could be better used by society in other ways, replacing the use of fossil fuels.

Similarly, we see no advantage in using blue hydrogen powered by natural gas compared with simply using the natural gas directly for heat. As we have demonstrated, far from being low emissions, blue hydrogen has emissions as large as or larger than those of natural gas used for heat (Figure 1; Table 1; Table 2). The small reduction in carbon dioxide emissions for blue hydrogen compared with natural gas are more than made up for by the larger emissions of fugitive methane. Society needs to move away from all fossil fuels as quickly as possible, and the truly green hydrogen produced by electrolysis driven by renewable electricity can play a role. Blue hydrogen, though, provides no benefit. We suggest that blue hydrogen is best viewed as a distraction, something than may delay needed action to truly decarbonize the global energy economy, in the same way that has been described for shale gas as a bridge fuel and for carbon capture and storage in general.43 We further note that much of the push for using hydrogen for energy since 2017 has come from the Hydrogen Council, a group established by the oil and gas industry specifically to promote hydrogen, with a major emphasis on blue hydrogen.5 From the industry perspective, switching from natural gas to blue hydrogen may be viewed as economically beneficial since even more natural gas is needed to generate the same amount of heat.

We emphasize that our analysis in this paper is a best-case scenario for blue hydrogen. It assumes that the carbon dioxide that is captured can indeed be stored indefinitely for decades and centuries into the future. In fact, there is no experience at commercial scale with storing carbon dioxide from carbon capture, and most carbon dioxide that is currently captured is used for enhanced oil recovery and is released back to the atmosphere.44 Further, our analysis does not consider the energy cost and associated greenhouse gas emissions from transporting and storing the captured carbon dioxide. Even without these considerations, though, blue hydrogen has large climatic consequences. We see no way that blue hydrogen can be considered “green.”
 

SamR

Joined Mar 19, 2019
4,117
Hydrogen is highly problematic. We used salt cell electrolysis off gas hydrogen to hydrogenate resin. It was stored in surplus WWII helium storage tanks from the decommissioned Glynco Naval dirigible base. They were placed remote from the operating areas into the middle of an open field where we also stored liquid nitrogen. Most now comes from Air Products company. Most stored gasses cool by expanding but even a pinhole leak in a compressed hydrogen line releases enough energy to ignite it when it combines with the oxygen in atmospheric air. An Air Products delivery driver told me they don't even bother to try and extinguish leak fires on their tank trucks. We compressed it to over 1000 psi and fed it into a hot thermal oil jacketed reactor with palladium catalyst to hydrogenate pine resins. The operating area was designed for and had frequent fires related to leaking hydrogen which unfortunately also ignited the resin feedstock causing an even greater conflagration. Almost as problematic as fire was the mercury contamination from the electrolytic salt cells anodes that had to be dealt with. That particular problem resulted in the salt cell operation closing and becoming an EPA Superfund Site henceforward Air Products became our supplier. I can't even imagine trying to store it in an old salt mine.
 

Deleted member 115935

Joined Dec 31, 1969
0
I'd like to chip in here

Hydrogen, yes its currently made mainly from carbon based fuels
the idea of the storage though it to use "green" sources of energy to crack water to Hydrogen.
 

Deleted member 115935

Joined Dec 31, 1969
0
Hydrogen is highly problematic. We used salt cell electrolysis off gas hydrogen to hydrogenate resin. It was stored in surplus WWII helium storage tanks from the decommissioned Glynco Naval dirigible base. They were placed remote from the operating areas into the middle of an open field where we also stored liquid nitrogen. Most now comes from Air Products company. Most stored gasses cool by expanding but even a pinhole leak in a compressed hydrogen line releases enough energy to ignite it when it combines with the oxygen in atmospheric air. An Air Products delivery driver told me they don't even bother to try and extinguish leak fires on their tank trucks. We compressed it to over 1000 psi and fed it into a hot thermal oil jacketed reactor with palladium catalyst to hydrogenate pine resins. The operating area was designed for and had frequent fires related to leaking hydrogen which unfortunately also ignited the resin feedstock causing an even greater conflagration. Almost as problematic as fire was the mercury contamination from the electrolytic salt cells anodes that had to be dealt with. That particular problem resulted in the salt cell operation closing and becoming an EPA Superfund Site henceforward Air Products became our supplier. I can't even imagine trying to store it in an old salt mine.
Yep
Hydrogen is flammable,
just a gasoline is,

Compressing it to such high numbers a pin prick size hole is bound to make enough static to cause a spark.
If the Hydrogen was at low pressure, a pin prick does not cause a spark,

One of the places I work, they use a lot of hydrogen,
luckily not high pressure,

they work on principle they can never stop the dammed stuff leaking ,
so they just have lots of flames around, to burn it quickly before it can build up,
hearing them pop can be interesting the first few times, but it works , they have bene at it for 50 plus years.

The story also goes of them putting out a gasoline fire using liquid hydrogen one time !
it was so cold , it killed the heat source.
 

Thread Starter

killivolt

Joined Jan 10, 2010
829
I thought this would be a dead thread, I thought I was out but look at you dragging me back in, lol

That said: Yank Carbon Dioxide 2021.
https://www.marketwatch.com/press-r...ith-opportunities-forecast-to-2027-2021-08-09

My example was dated 2000 now it’s grown, markets and market watch is out seeking for leading use as a refrigerant, how does that play a role in sequestering CO2 and what role does it play in side market growth and influence on the economy. We aren‘t out of the woods but might gain small margins in the future, battery technology will be on the rise as well which will also be an emerging market. I see jobs, if the current spending .gov gets approved we might see a jump start as we did when we said Nuclear Energy as a source of power, why not spend to see other sources of combined oil dependences to fund the future of renewables we want to utilized in current manufacturing and retro fit them for future use. Hopefully we can store energy enough to offset future use and distribute the challenge for the need of energy into the future.
The report provides a recent overview of the future market scope and competitive market scenario for gaining overall information about the global Carbon Dioxide Refrigerant market growth rate during the estimated period. Moreover, the report studies the crucial growth aspects such as market valuation, geographical segmentation, and market competitiveness among the industry manufacturers. The report has incorporated the analysis of different factors that augment the market’s growth. It constitutes trends, restraints, and drivers that transform the market in either a positive or negative manner.
kv
 

Chris65536

Joined Nov 11, 2019
270
The biggest downside of hydrogen is its low density, which makes it unsuitable for vehicles. But as a stationary energy storage medium I think it could work. It's interesting they're planning to burn it in gas turbines, instead of the usual fuel cell nonsense.
 

sagor

Joined Mar 10, 2019
668
Yep
Hydrogen is flammable,
just a gasoline is,
.....
Neither Hydrogen nor gasoline is flamable without an oxidant, ie Oxygen, to allow combustion. You can spark Hydrogen all you want in a Nitrogen or Argon atmosphere without any ignition.
So, ignition depends on how it is stored and how it is retrieved... Isolate it from an oxidant, and the fuel is relatively safe. That said, oxygen is always around us to some degree, hence the usual dangers.
Just to set the record straight...
 

nsaspook

Joined Aug 27, 2009
9,433
Neither Hydrogen nor gasoline is flamable without an oxidant, ie Oxygen, to allow combustion. You can spark Hydrogen all you want in a Nitrogen or Argon atmosphere without any ignition.
So, ignition depends on how it is stored and how it is retrieved... Isolate it from an oxidant, and the fuel is relatively safe. That said, oxygen is always around us to some degree, hence the usual dangers.
Just to set the record straight...
True but the flammability range for Hydrogen is pretty wide. Hydrogen has a very broad flammability range—a 4 percent to 74 percent concentration in air and 4 percent to 94 percent in oxygen. Also, it requires only 0.02 millijoules of energy to ignite the hydrogen–air mixture, which is less than 7 percent of the energy needed to ignite natural gas. It's on a hair trigger to explode in your face.
Comparison-of-flammability-limits-of-typical-engine-fuels.jpg
https://www.nasa.gov/pdf/513855main_ASK_41s_explosive.pdf
 
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shortbus

Joined Sep 30, 2009
9,318
That chart is why I speak out when someone comes here asking about making DIY HHO by electrolysis. If they need to ask, they have no business trying. Watching Youtube videos is not learning to do it safely, mostly just luckily. The only real good thing is they can't make enough of it to be really really dangerous to any one but their self.

And the real idiots wanting to do it with high voltage AC? They don't understand they are making a bomb. A gaseous mix of hydrogen and oxygen at the correct ratio to explode.
 
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