Yes, the evidence is all around that a such a entity does not exist. Most of our fellow men are just not willing to take responsibility for their own lives, so to the dogma they go...

<redacted>

 

Our daily news seems to be full of horrendous acts by people against other people and animals. This week, it's a child in Mexico who was a hit man for the cartel and who, by the age of 12, had already decapitated people. Then, there's a father in the Southern US who murdered his children and disposed of their bodies in unmarked graves. And so forth.

I don't think anyone who has written in this thread is likely to have performed such acts, but if instilling a belief in God would help decrease that violence among people who lack the mental capacity to behave and to take responsibility for their own actions, I am all for it. Some cultures (e.g., China, Singapore) seem to control crimes by making punishment swift, certain, and severe. But, we seem far from reaching that point in the West.

John

 

Our daily news seems to be full of horrendous acts by people against other people and animals. This week, it's a child in Mexico who was a hit man for the cartel and who, by the age of 12, had already decapitated people. Then, there's a father in the Southern US who murdered his children and disposed of their bodies in unmarked graves. And so forth.

I don't think anyone who has written in this thread is likely to have performed such acts, but if instilling a belief in God would help decrease that violence among people who lack the mental capacity to behave and to take responsibility for their own actions, I am all for it. Some cultures (e.g., China, Singapore) seem to control crimes by making punishment swift, certain, and severe. But, we seem far from reaching that point in the West.

John

Fear of God does not make people more moral. If anything, it can make them less moral, because it gives them an excuse. This world does not matter if you have eternity to waste. You can just blame it on your sins, not yourself, and ask for forgiveness. If you believe you get it, that makes everything okay.

This may be one of the reasons why 80% of the prison population in America is Christian but ~0.2% is atheist despite America being at least 80% Christian and 15% atheist. See here for sources: http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm

 

Fear of God does not make people more moral. If anything, it can make them less moral, because it gives them an excuse. This world does not matter if you have eternity to waste. You can just blame it on your sins, not yourself, and ask for forgiveness. If you believe you get it, that makes everything okay.

This may be one of the reasons why 80% of the prison population in America is Christian but ~0.2% is atheist despite America being at least 80% Christian and 15% atheist. See here for sources: http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm

I don't think you understood what I wrote. Instead you want to play silly word games.

As for your "data" from a highly slanted site: Sure, lots of people claim to have a religion. We get asked that many times, and it is easier to give an answer. The prisoners are asked too and respond for a variety of reasons -- maybe to get favors or to impress the guards. Maybe its related to the history of our black population. However, since the prisoners are all convicted felons, do you really trust what they say as your best source of information?

John

 

To me it's a positive thing about THIS WEBSITE that so many people, with so many differing views, from so many different countries can talk about this for so long, without a flame war starting.

This is one of the things that makes THIS the best site on the WEB !!! Congratulation to all of us!!!

 

I don't think you understood what I wrote. Instead you want to play silly word games.

As for your "data" from a highly slanted site: Sure, lots of people claim to have a religion. We get asked that many times, and it is easier to give an answer. The prisoners are asked too and respond for a variety of reasons -- maybe to get favors or to impress the guards. Maybe its related to the history of our black population. However, since the prisoners are all convicted felons, do you really trust what they say as your best source of information?

John

The data may be from a highly slanted site, but its source is from an official request for information from the Federal Bureau of Prisons.

I do not necessarily trust the data, but you needn't consult just prisoners. This trend is seen everywhere. For example, atheists are apparently 50% less likely to get divorced.

But either way... this is about 2012, not religion. Let's keep to that subject.

 

This trend is seen everywhere.

What trend?

For example, atheists are apparently 50% less likely to get divorced.

What does divorce have to do with felonies?

But either way... this is about 2012, not religion. Let's keep to that subject.

It's been off 2012 for a long while. It is "Off-Topic."

So, what's your solution to decreasing the horrendous things people are doing to people?

John

 

What trend?

The trend for religion to do more harm than good for morality, on average.

What does divorce have to do with felonies?

In several religions and cultures divorce is morally shunned. It has nothing to do with felonies.

It's been off 2012 for a long while. It is "Off-Topic."

So, what's your solution to decreasing the horrendous things people are doing to people?

John

Education and teaching people to respect each other.

Of course there are bad apples, but you know what? Things are okay. If it were very bad, society wouldn't survive. (Think about it - if murders were high, societies wouldn't last.) Neither atheism nor religion holds the key, but a better moral character does. I know you quoted some hideous examples but those would still happen in any society.

 

Yea ....congratulations for being true gentlemen beside so many difference amongst us

@thatonguy.
Please edit ur post, about ur comment on My God. I feel offended. We do not know he has a beard or not, infact no one knows how Allah looks like. I like u to respect me, that goes for my belief too.

As for the questions I asked here are my answers.

The Red sea or the Dead sea is the result of the country known as "Sodoom" or Sodom got annihilated due to the adultery and homo sexuality that went on during the era of Messeger Loot or Lot (PBUH). Lot (PBUH) was married to a beautiful maid of Sodom. Sodom inhabitant was known famous for homosexuality . The youth can't seem to get enuf of d***s. The wife of the messenger Lot(PBUH) that was sent for Sodom was trying to get his daughters married to Sodom Homo's. Lot (PBUH) cannot get is people to believe in Allah, so he prayed to save him from their grips. Revelation was brought by Angels disguised as Men ( the most handsome appearance of men ) to Lot that it was time to take his Muslim believers away from the city by dawn. The Qur'an says that when these men arrived, Lot was afraid for them for the fact that they were so handsome and if the city folks see them they will want to you know " get to know them personally". So Lot(PBUH) tried to hide them in his tent from eyes of Sodom. Lot(PBUH) offered shelter and food for them, but they never touched and does not seem to be interested worldly matters. Surprised and scared he asked them who they were. They replied that they are messenger from Allah. Allah heard his prayer and the angels were sent to punish the non believers of Sodom. Lot(PBUH) were to leave the city by dawn and never to look back to see what was happening. Lot's (PBUM) wife saw the handsome men and hurried to get his father and his pimps. they came and seeing the angels as humans they wanted them and put guards around the tent from letting them escape so they can come back with reinforcement to take them to the city and have an Orgy. Allah ordered Gabriel to help them escape and with just one wave from his wings the guards eyes went blind and died instantly. By dawn Lot(PBUH) took his people and warned them not to look back no matter what they heard for if anyone look back to see what was happening he would be amongst the dead.
The angels brought down the mountain and the City was turned upside down. The Believers could hardly keep their ears shut due to the sound of deafening thunder and rumble. from that day God informed the people that no living creature would survive in that sea. Thus named the dead sea.

Note.. The Wiki has it wrong and for the fact that it was taken from Genesis, proves that some things are re-written

I will answer the second one after dinner, post will be edited

 

 

In several religions and cultures divorce is morally shunned. It has nothing to do with felonies. .

Divorce is really a bad thing, it is said every time a Muslim divorces his wife the Heavens shook. It is that bad of an act

 

The trend for religion to do more harm than good for morality, on average.

You lost me there. Are you saying religion is bad for morality?

In several religions and cultures divorce is morally shunned. It has nothing to do with felonies.

And I was talking about felonies.

Education and teaching people to respect each other.

Your data please?

Your comments and correlations with respect to atheists and people who claim to have a religion are based on comparing groups that are quite different in many other ways too. Those differences, such as educational level, socioeconomic status, age, and intelligence, also have strong correlations with criminal behavior. In other words, if you want to show cause and effect (see the very first quote from you in this response), you need to control for those important confounding variables. That you have not done.

John

 

You lost me there. Are you saying religion is bad for morality?

In general, that is my opinion which is mostly backed with data.

And I was talking about felonies.

I was providing another data point as you seemed to have problems with that one.

Your data please?

Your comments and correlations with respect to atheists and people who claim to have a religion are based on comparing groups that are quite different in many other ways too. Those differences, such as educational level, socioeconomic status, age, and intelligence, also have strong correlations with criminal behavior. In other words, if you want to show cause and effect (see the very first quote from you in this response), you need to control for those important confounding variables. That you have not done.

John

Again - it's an opinion. I am not a social scientist, I am electronics hobbyist. Of course Christians and atheists will be divided into different groups of varying intelligence, income and so on.

Can you provide data countering mine, that religion brings better morality? (Please note, a holy book does not count.)

 

Can you provide data countering mine, that religion brings better morality? (Please note, a holy book does not count.)
Reply With Quote

To answer that, we would need to know what you consider moral behavior, and we don't know that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpanhalt View Post
You lost me there. Are you saying religion is bad for morality?

In general, that is my opinion which is mostly backed with data.

Thus, it appears you are saying religion is bad for morality. The onus of proof generally lies with the person making the affirmative claim.

John

 

Thus, it appears you are saying religion is bad for morality. The onus of proof generally lies with the person making the affirmative claim.

John

I believe a LACK of religion makes people MORE morale. Like I believe a lack of water makes electronics work better. I don't think it's an affirmative claim.

 

@tom66

1) You have yet to say what you mean by morality.
2) You said religion is bad for morality.

As to your conclusion that religion is positively correlated with crime, that is simply wrong. Here is a lengthy report that shows at worst, no correlation and most likely a negative/inverse correlation between religion and criminal behavior: http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/209350.pdf

There is too much to quote here, but data in the report are summarized in page 116:

What has emerged is mounting evidence in favor of faith as a criminal justice intervention and the utilization of stronger research methodologies to make theoretical advances. The vast majority of subsequent studies examining the relationship between religion and crime have found that faith matters—an inverse relationship exists between criminal involvement and religiosity (Albrecht, et al., 1977; Benda, 1994; Burkett 1977; Stack and Kanavy, 1983; Evans, et al, 1997).

Now, please define what you mean by "morality."

John

 

Now, please define what you mean by "morality."

John

I accept this definition from Wikipedia:

Morality (from the Latin moralities "manner, character, proper behavior") is a sense of behavioral conduct that differentiates intentions, decisions, and actions between those that are good (or right) and bad (or wrong). A moral code is a system of morality (for example, according to a particular philosophy, religion, culture, etc.) and a moral is any one practice or teaching within a moral code. Immorality is the active opposition to morality, while amorality is variously defined as an unawareness of, indifference toward, or disbelief in any set of moral standards or principles.[1][2][3][4][5]

 

The real motive,why not 555 so it looks a little
electronic.All the quoteing of books of past years.
How many times have opinions changed over
the years. Like I say the unwritten stuff you guys
don't know about,maybe a few. Will it make Bills 555 album.
And on the 555th day,the world..........

 

Well, even if the world is not coming to an end, sadly this thread seems to have.

RIP....

 

A news paper reporter was predicting doom in U.S.A. for real.
This was not just a local reporter,a national reporter on the
editorial page.John may read it,kathleen Parker,Washington post.
If things keep going the way they are 2012 could be a bad year.
England,Ireland ,greece and alot of countries are having serious
bank problems. You know things are always worst than we know,
until things happen. This post will make your goal because the
bad things will continue to happen. Burger King just fired 700
people in miami. When companies go bankrupt and pension fund
go's under,that when you will alot of stuff will happen.They are borrowing
money to pay these programs,that what the tarp was a cash fund
to cops ,firemen,government employee pay. When that run out.
They are blaming Edwards for not praying to god to cure her cancer
once she was told it was terminal.This post won't die first.