the title of Engineer

alfacliff

Joined Dec 13, 2013
2,458
when I worked at NCR, my se=cond level manager called himself an engineer, he had a phd in physics, I asked him one day if he ever drove a train. not a good idea.
 

MaxHeadRoom

Joined Jul 18, 2013
28,619
when I worked at NCR, my se=cond level manager called himself an engineer, he had a phd in physics, I asked him one day if he ever drove a train. not a good idea.
Yes, the original term pre-dates the academic one, it used to be someone who either builds or maintains engines.
Max.
 

studiot

Joined Nov 9, 2007
4,998
Yes, the original term pre-dates the academic one, it used to be someone who either builds or maintains engines.
Max, I think you need to go a couple of thousand years further back for the origins.
 

GopherT

Joined Nov 23, 2012
8,009
Yes, the original term pre-dates the academic one, it used to be someone who either builds or maintains engines.
Max.
Middle English (denoting a designer and constructor of fortifications and weapons; formerly also asingineer ): in early use from Old French engigneor, from medieval Latin ingeniator, from ingeniare‘contrive, devise,’ from Latin ingenium (see engine); in later use from French ingénieur or Italianingegnere, also based on Latin ingenium, with the ending influenced by -eer.
 

studiot

Joined Nov 9, 2007
4,998
Middle English
No, you were right at the end, you need to go back to Roman times.

The Romans introduced the title and distinguished two types of Engineer

Military Engineer
Civil Engineer (Those who were not military engineers ie engineering any other pourpose)

The classic is General Flavius who also had the title (Military) Engineer who won the seige of Masada by means of Engineering Works.
 

JoeJester

Joined Apr 26, 2005
4,390
n.
early 14c., "constructor of military engines," from Old French engigneor, from Late Latin ingeniare (see engine ); general sense of "inventor, designer" is recorded from early 15c.; civil sense, in reference to public works, is recorded from c.1600. Meaning "locomotive driver" is first attested 1832, American English. A "maker of engines" in ancient Greece was a mekhanopoios.

v.
1843 (but cf. engineering ), from engineer (n.). Figurative sense of "arrange, contrive" is attested from 1864, originally in a political context. Related: Engineered.

cite:
engineer. (n.d.). Online Etymology Dictionary. Retrieved September 29, 2014, from Dictionary.com website: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/engineer
 

studiot

Joined Nov 9, 2007
4,998
A "maker of engines" in ancient Greece was a mekhanopoios.
I guess that is where we derive 'mechanic'

But the Ancient Greeks spoke - Ancient Greek - not Latin.

The Romans were avid chroniclers eg Frontinus, Vitruvius and Pliny.
 

GopherT

Joined Nov 23, 2012
8,009
I believe the side-bar question was the origin of the English word, Engineer, not the history of engineering. From my point of view, engineering started way before Romans - a kid trying to figure out how to kill his lunch because he was tired of eating nuts and berries.
 

studiot

Joined Nov 9, 2007
4,998
I believe the side-bar question was the origin of the English word, Engineer, not the history of engineering.
Yes and the current English word we have had for a few centuries came from a similar word in an older language.

That older language was Latin and the word was 'ingeniare', as you have already stated.
 

ErnieM

Joined Apr 24, 2011
8,377
Ditch "Control Systems Specialist" and replace with "Control Systems Engineer." The essential part is "engineer" all else is fluff or unwanted detail.

Why unwanted? Engineers first of all are most respected, and they are referred to by the term "engineer." They think and act like any other top of the food chain critter. It is my belief that any modification of this term is a limiter, not an extender.

Obviously you don't let your "software engineer" have input to your hardware, no matter he has a BSEE degree and a pile of dev boards he has self modified to match then current jobs.

You don't let your "hardware engineer" change even a single line of code (no less let him write any) as he has not the skill for this.

Look, I am a degreed engineer with decades of on the job experience, along with several products on the market. My current position is as the engineering manager of a small department. It is a working position as I am the sole engineer, though I do have a group of technicians to perform daily tasks for me while I do the design work, and also step in as the troubleshooter. I love this as I have "Engineering Manager" as two thirds of my title.

The big issue with this? The first word of my title: Test. I'm the Test Engineering Manager, and as a test engineer and of the "real" "engineers" feels fine in overruling me. They come up with new designs and when it comes time for test I learn of them for the first time and am not supplied with a test spec, I am handed a test procedure. This just happened with a job I designed the test fixture for.

I was even asked on my interview "but you're an engineer, will you be happy "just" doing test?" or as I see it "will you be happy designing your own hardware and writing your own software for it and oft building your own equipment with several people to work with you as your captive minions?"

I feel like Rodney Dangerfield. I just don't get no respect.

As far as I know anyone may be called/call themselve an "engineer." The problem only comes in when you claim to be a "professional Engineer" (PE). Those guys have a certain number of years of on the job experience and have passed a written test. The exact specifics vary between states.

Bottom line: get "engineer" into your title, and try for as little else as you can (excepting "manager."
 

JoeJester

Joined Apr 26, 2005
4,390
Dictionary.com's definition ... http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/engineer
engineer:
noun
1. a person trained and skilled in the design, construction, and use of engines or machines, or in any of various branches of engineering :
"a mechanical engineer; a civil engineer."
2. a person who operates or is in charge of an engine.
3. Also called locomotive engineer. Railroads. a person who operates or is in charge of a locomotive.
4. a member of an army, navy, or air force specially trained in engineering work.
5. a skillful manager:
"a political engineer."
verb
6. to plan, construct, or manage as an engineer:
"He's engineered several big industrial projects."
7. to design or create using the techniques or methods of engineering :
"The motor has been engineered to run noiselessly."
8. to arrange, manage, or carry through by skillful or artful contrivance:
"He certainly engineered the election campaign beautifully."
British Dictionary definition:
noun
1. a person trained in any branch of the profession of engineering
2. the originator or manager of a situation, system, etc
3. a mechanic; person who repairs or services machines
and finally ...
Merriam-Webster.com definition http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/engineer
1 : a member of a military group devoted to engineering work
2 obsolete : a crafty schemer : plotter
3 a : a designer or builder of engines
b : a person who is trained in or follows as a profession a branch of engineering
c : a person who carries through an enterprise by skillful or artful contrivance
4 : a person who runs or supervises an engine or an apparatus
noun
: a person who has scientific training and who designs and builds complicated products, machines, systems, or structures : a person who specializes in a branch of engineering
: a person who runs or is in charge of an engine in an airplane, a ship, etc.
: a person who runs a train
Origin of ENGINEER
Middle English engineour, from Anglo-French, from enginer to devise, construct, from engin
First Known Use: 14th century
Use engineer ...
 

ErnieM

Joined Apr 24, 2011
8,377
Completely in disagreement with my post, but a very well stated argument.
The funny thing is I am in complete agreement with your post.

I've had many happy days correcting the degreed engineers, but when the company changes, they get the job and I get the boot. It doesn't matter that they tell the transformer guy to wind a toroid that is physically impossible or submit a design that explodes when overloaded, they have the degree and I am a peon. So...don't compete with the title, "engineer". Make yourself the boss of the engineers. Make yourself the head of some department.
When "they" keep the jobs and you know not to compete with a certain class... are you familiar with the term "we have met the enemy and they are us?" Or how about "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em."


(Aside: one manager I worked under (2nd replacement in 4 years for the manager that hired me) worked under the Napoleon complex, not only for being vertical challenged but for lack of a degree I gathered from some offhand remarks he made to me. A complete boob who was forced to assign one of my nearly complete projects to someone else so he could claim I had nothing to do with the work (besides overall design, the hardware, the software, and sensor concept) and the man who merely made the sensor did the entire project on his own. That allowed him to mark me as unnecessary so he could give me the boot. So I have a bias against overpromoted people.

(However, I have spent much of my career working very closely with production departments, and have discovered engineers in general just do not get that products have to go out the back door (and stay out there) for money to come in the front door. I would rather see 3-4 workers on the shop floor then another designer as the people on the floor will make us some cash, and cash is king.)
 

mcgyvr

Joined Oct 15, 2009
5,394
I am the only one in the "Engineering" department here too.. Everyone refers to me as "Our Engineer"
But due to my lack of an "E" degree my business card says "Product Designer" but when its raise time they use the scales based off a "Senior Engineer" job title due to my experience.
 

Thread Starter

strantor

Joined Oct 3, 2010
6,782
AAC's newest Controls Engineer checking in...

Pulled some teeth and got the title. They handed me an offer letter with a salary on it, and a technician title. I told them I would either accept the salary if they change the title to engineer, or I would accept the title of technician if they change the salary to its hourly equivalent (which would end up being a LOT more money with OT).

Of course, they told me it wasn't possible/legal to call me an engineer, so I printed out the 72page Texas Board of Professional Engineers Laws & Rules, with all the pertinent info highlighted, and squashed that argument.

Then came a series of rebuttals, handled in turn:

"The issue isn't a matter of legality, but of outside perception - we don't want our customers thinking we just hand out engineer titles like candy" (paraphrased)
"Well, would you rather your customers find out that your products are engineered by technicians?" (Paraphrased)

"The issue is more logistical than anything; we had a company planning meeting wherein we agreed upon a timeline and a set of prerequisite conditions for hiring into certain positions. We do intend on opening a couple of Engineer positions once we achieve X certifications and Y sales, and as an existing employee, you would naturally be eligible to apply for the role at that time" (paraphrased)
"Does your budget have room to continue paying me the hourly rate that I'm currently charging you until your logistical timeline catches up?" (Paraphrased)

"Ok, I can do 'Systems Engineer' or ' Applications Engineer'"
"Systems Engineer isn't really applicable, and neither is Applications Engineer. What's wrong with just 'Engineer'? I don't want to be limited by extraneous prefixes. Already I've designed mechanics, hydraulics, and software for you."
"I'm sorry, I can't do that."
"Ok, how about Electro-Mechanical Engineer"
"No way man, that requires TWO degrees"
"Not necessarily, but whatever, that's fine, how about Controls Engineer?"
"Uh, let me get back to you on that..."

Next day, BAM. Controls Engineer.
 
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