So how do you plan to access the current (and it will be AC) in the winding?

The two ends of the winding are attached to two rings in the ordinary way, and any output conducted through carbon brushes to respective terminals. Here shouldn't be any problem with that--but if you have any suggestions, about anything, they're most welcome. Any AC generated will obviously be of low frequency, no more than 8 Hz.

Also, since I now realise that, due to the limited current from my 12 V battery, H-Bridges will only need to handle 50 Amps or so--there will be two of them--, do you agree that MOSFETs would be more appropriate than IGBTs, for low frequency switching? One very important thing I learned here too is the importance of heat sinks; and that these must be attached. I'm supposing also that any correctly rated module will be equipped with flyback diodes in order to accommodate inductance effects--please correct me if I'm wrong there.

 

I'm supposing also that any correctly rated module will be equipped with flyback diodes

Check the module spec. You may have to add external diodes.
For a given current, MOSFETs generate less heat than IGBTs.

 

I still suggest that a study of transformer functioning and theory would be of value in the effort of making this invention perform at it's best. In addition it would provide additional knowledge of the means of describing things in a manner that would be clearer to the rest of us.
Knowledge is the fertilizer in the fields of creativity.

 

System, described by TS, contains:
1. Accumulator.
2. Stepper motor. Efficiency factor is about 0.2 at RPM = (8Hz/6 pairs of EM)*60sec = 80.
3. Stepper generator. Efficiency factor is same as for stepper motor and is about 0.2.
4. Electrolyser. Efficiency factor is about 0.5.
Goal:
Improve electrolysis efficiency by special form of current pulses from stepper generator.
What we have:
A. Efficiency factor of system [accumulator - electroliser] equal 0.5.
B. Efficiency factor of system [accumulator - stepper motor - stepper generator - electrolyser] equal 0.2*0.2*0.5=0.02.
C. Even if efficiency factor of electrolyser will equal 1 because of special form of current pulses, then summary efficiency factor of system will equal 0.2*0.2*1=0.04, so system [accumulator - electrolyser] is 0.5/0.04=12.5 times more efficient than system described by TS.
D. Current pulses from stepper generator are bipolar, so each electrode of electrolyser will produce oxygen and hydrogen, and we can not store this mix of gases, and can not use it, because of its extreme explosive hazard.
-----
In PDF below given method of electrolysis right from battery with efficiency factor about 0.97.
TS can try it out, using one AAA battery and small transistor.

 

Danko, one thing your missing in his 'experiment', he is using the rotor to both make it turn it's self and generate at the same time. But you are so right about using AC to create hydrogen and oxygen. Putting the results from doing it, with AC, is making a bomb in a bottle.

 

I think the thread starter may be working on potential alternate uses for an idea that originally had different goals. I Googled around looking for the spero-helix shape described above and landed at a very long page describing a system that sounds just like what the thread starter has (minus the electrolysis.)

I didn't read the whole page, but it sounds like it was originally focused on the idea that pure sine waves are less efficient for long distance power transmission than some other shape would be, and that this coil arrangement might make a more ideal waveform for more efficient transmission.

Regarding what is argued as a less than optimal conductive efficiency or conductivity within conventional A.C. systems and circuits (or greater than necessary impedance)--, if it is reasonable to argue that A.C. conductive efficiency may in fact be enhanced (thus by inference, EM inductive efficiency in the greater context of an extended circuit in which conductive efficiency is less than optimal) by generating a specific form of A.C. Voltage and Current waveforms of optimal conductive characteristics or configuration-- that is, optimally capable of propagation over the extended circuit within which they are generated--, then what is proposed here is a system of continuous induction in a 'Continuous Induction Generator' capable of enhancing such properties of wave propagation properties simply by virtue of the intrinsic geometry or design and configuration of that generator itself should all components of such inductive effect and induction resultant be capable of integration according to the same principles of geometric configuration into a Single Phase A.C. Wave of hypothetically optimal form.

From:
http://magneticcorepropellergenerat...tinuous-induction-turbine-integrated.html?m=1

I'm not sure what to make of any of the claims on that page, but it has lots of cool pictures and diagrams!

 

shortbus, thank you for comment!
I knew that TS device is combined, but in this device we have 2 individual sources of energy losses.
One is resistance of "motor" winding (electromagnets on stator), second - resistance of "generator" winding (coil on rotor).
So, presenting device as [motor+generator] make logic of calculations more convenient for understanding.

 

From:
http://magneticcorepropellergenerat...tinuous-induction-turbine-integrated.html?m=1

I'm not sure what to make of any of the claims on that page, but it has lots of cool pictures and diagrams!

Easy, if someone invokes Quantum Electro-dynamics when talking about electrical generators you know they are full of crap.

 

A reversing contactor is probably the simplest solution. To kill residual magnetism in an iron circuit, approx. 10% of the magnetizing current will be required. Another potential solution is to use capacitors to produce a ringing circuit where the current is rapidly transferred from inductor to capacitor (XL=XC) until dissipated.

 

What kind of inductance are you talking about in these electromagnets?

If it's more than a very small amount, when you try to switch that current quickly, you will discover that one of the quicker ways to die is open-circuiting an energized electromagnet.

If your current is 800 A and you are cycling at 4 Hz, then even 100 mH of total inductance will require 640 V in order to ramp linearly.

I'm beginning to think this whole thing is a perpetual-motion or energy-for-free type idea by someone who does not have the necessary background in high-voltage/high-current applications to understand the physical requirements for both feasability and safety.

 

I'm beginning to think this whole thing is a perpetual-motion or energy-for-free type idea by someone who does not have the necessary background in high-voltage/high-current applications to understand the physical requirements for both feasability and safety.

Better watch out!!! The attacks on you should start any time now. This was and still is my thoughts on the whole proposal, and placing it here on AAC will just try to give it more "credibility".

 

I'm not sure what to make of any of the claims on that page, but it has lots of cool pictures and diagrams!

Easy, if someone invokes Quantum Electro-dynamics when talking about electrical generators you know they are full of crap.

Then you guys definitely want to go to any of his mentors pages.

http://harmoniouspalette.com/RadialPoleCoilParamagneticOrDiamagnetic.html

http://harmoniouspalette.com/VectorEquilibriumResonator.html

http://harmoniouspalette.com/multi-axial-coils-1980s.html

http://harmoniouspalette.com/

 

My impression of this is that getting efficiency of more than 10% seems very very unlikely. Open magnetic path electromagnets are pretty dismal.

 

System, described by TS, contains:
1. Accumulator.
2. Stepper motor. Efficiency factor is about 0.2 at RPM = (8Hz/6 pairs of EM)*60sec = 80.
3. Stepper generator. Efficiency factor is same as for stepper motor and is about 0.2.
4. Electrolyser. Efficiency factor is about 0.5.
Goal:
Improve electrolysis efficiency by special form of current pulses from stepper generator.
What we have:
A. Efficiency factor of system [accumulator - electroliser] equal 0.5.
B. Efficiency factor of system [accumulator - stepper motor - stepper generator - electrolyser] equal 0.2*0.2*0.5=0.02.
C. Even if efficiency factor of electrolyser will equal 1 because of special form of current pulses, then summary efficiency factor of system will equal 0.2*0.2*1=0.04, so system [accumulator - electrolyser] is 0.5/0.04=12.5 times more efficient than system described by TS.
D. Current pulses from stepper generator are bipolar, so each electrode of electrolyser will produce oxygen and hydrogen, and we can not store this mix of gases, and can not use it, because of its extreme explosive hazard.
-----
In PDF below given method of electrolysis right from battery with efficiency factor about 0.97.
TS can try it out, using one AAA battery and small transistor.
View attachment 160562

Thanks Danko. This is quite a sophisticated analysis, and the paper attached, while it is somewhat beyond the scope of my knowledge, is most intriguing--and I will try to study it at greater length, since the subject is most critical--, and seems to summarise the scenario accurately in the Introduction; that is, there seems little doubt that even at current levels of efficiency, particularly with those which may have been established in the paper (?inductive reverse voltage pulse generator), hydrogen-based power for industry and locomotion is inevitable, especially based on solar powered DC source; and clearly the estimation of what is most 'economical' in production of hydrogen gas ignores various invaluable benefits.

Having said that however, the proposition that the output, if any, from my generator--and it is not unreasonable to characterise it generally in the way you do (although I would take exception to your estimates of efficiency based on traditional configurations)*-- might be capable of electrolysing salt water (even KOH solutions etc.) with greater real efficiency in the use of current is merely an almost idle conjecture born of wondering upon its purpose. As you might appreciate, the configuration and geometric form of the inductive relations was motivated by the idea that a magnetic propeller might be turned by a rotating magnetic field, and not with any aim. *Such calculations of efficiency do not necessarily apply in this case; by virtue of the peculiarity of the winding in particular. For example, acceleration and deceleration are functions of the interaction between the 3 elements, the magnetic core, the stator EMs and the winding itself.

Naturally any AC generated would require rectifying in order to function in electrolysis of water; and I had sometimes envisaged some sort of rotating commutator 'brushing' a series of electrodes (e.g. in a circular array), successively attracting in their gaseous forms hydrogen and oxygen; not a wholly fabulous idea given the very low frequency of AC tentatively sought. Of course--and I'm sure Old Shortbus will be relieved to hear it--, the entirety of such a process would be happily delegated to experts who know technically about electro-hydrolysis.

In addition, I cannot emphasise to you too much how ludicrous these suggestions about 'over-unity' are in this instance; and the almost delusional character of claims that somehow I am attempting by subterfuge to introduce such a scheme through this esteemed portal. You should simply disregard them, and if you are interested at all in the 'magnetic core propeller generator', concentrate on its actual form. Thanks again.

 

I'm beginning to think this whole thing is a perpetual-motion or energy-for-free type idea by someone who does not have the necessary background in high-voltage/high-current applications to understand the physical requirements for both feasability and safety.

I can only reiterate what I have written in this regard, and ask you to read it more carefully. The issue of high currents has been resolved by the fact, pointed out here, that the output from the 12 V car battery I'm using delivers only about 90 Amps; and the practical problem of using an H-Bridge switch is therefore clarified, through this wonderful forum; particularly in the earlier posts pertinent to that issue.

 

Then you guys definitely want to go to any of his mentors pages.

http://harmoniouspalette.com/RadialPoleCoilParamagneticOrDiamagnetic.html

http://harmoniouspalette.com/VectorEquilibriumResonator.html

http://harmoniouspalette.com/multi-axial-coils-1980s.html

http://harmoniouspalette.com/

These pages are Bo Atkinson who is not my mentor at all, although we did communicate briefly--around 2014?-- after he posted a comment on my 'blogspot' presentation of this generator as a mechanically-driven device for production of electrical power, which it is not. The original idea briefly outlined here (c.1990) is as explained; and I have at least for the time being rejected that later alternative. And yes, 'ebeowulf17' has indeed discovered that 'blogspot', and there is no shortage of material there directed to the hypothesis of increased conductivity; although presented with the incorrect perspective.

The argument in physics, while mere hypothesis, remains valid; suggesting that the peculiar form of the generator itself permits electron intrinsic spin (and by a further inference of that idea, the L orbital momenta of electrons in copper) to be accommodated within the EM inductive process in a way entirely neglected in conventional AC generators; somewhat analogous to the introduction of the inclined plane as a propeller into that process to supplant the old-fashioned see-saw oar or paddle wheel which suffers from the inherent inefficiency--thus in the case of EM induction, increased impedance-- of an interrupted process; particularly when conventional AC is conducted over distance. Whatever AC is generated in this proposed apparatus will be continuously generated in the entire winding.

 

A reversing contactor is probably the simplest solution. To kill residual magnetism in an iron circuit, approx. 10% of the magnetizing current will be required. Another potential solution is to use capacitors to produce a ringing circuit where the current is rapidly transferred from inductor to capacitor (XL=XC) until dissipated.

Can this inefficiency (~10 %) be reduced using a 'reversing contactor set'?

 

A 90A contactor set reversing more frequently than once every minute or so would probably drive you mad with the clatter . Have you checked out the price of contactors?

 

The argument in physics, while mere hypothesis, remains valid; suggesting that the peculiar form of the generator itself permits electron intrinsic spin (and by a further inference of that idea, the L orbital momenta of electrons in copper) to be accommodated within the EM inductive process in a way entirely neglected in conventional AC generators; somewhat analogous to the introduction of the inclined plane as a propeller into that process to supplant the old-fashioned see-saw oar or paddle wheel which suffers from the inherent inefficiency--thus in the case of EM induction, increased impedance-- of an interrupted process; particularly when conventional AC is conducted over distance. Whatever AC is generated in this proposed apparatus will be continuously generated in the entire winding.

Your idea that, "the generator itself permits electron intrinsic spin (and by a further inference of that idea, the L orbital momenta of electrons in copper) " would be better used and proposed on one of the audio sites that also promote 'oxygen free copper' speaker wire.

But just to be sure I haven't missed something in your blogspot, I will reread it after I make a tin/aluminum foil hat.

 

I didn't see this on Electroboom's current video so it must not be over-unity.