You're right, the numbers tell the tale. It's just debatable what tale they tell.

The tale I was telling is that hybrid technology is more fuel efficient than ICE-only technology. I thought wayneh was challenging that. He wasn't, so it's a moot point at this juncture, but IIRC it has been challenged several times before in this thread and my previous thread. It just isn't true; if we keep the discussion limited to MPG, there just isn't any ICE-only cars in regular production that can meet or beat hybrids in their class (except maybe the hybrid suburban and tahoe - what a joke!).

Now, introduce money into the equation and things change, as you have rightly shown. MP$ isn't the same as MPG. As I said before on this site, I did all the math before I went shopping and concluded that buying a hybrid didn't make financial sense. The Ford Fiesta was actually my #1 pick until I went to see it in person. No room for field service tools. I looked at all the sub-$25K >30mpg compacts and none of them fit the bill, so I was forced to start looking at SUVs, which made even less financial sense than a hybrid. The Prius has more room even than the small-ish SUVs I was looking at (Kia Soul, Nissan cube, Juke, etc.), cost less, and got double the mileage. Maybe I should have included the '89 Ford Probe in my search, but I just didn't know about it.

 

Maybe I should have included the '89 Ford Probe in my search, but I just didn't know about it.

With only 12 cu-ft of cargo space, compared to over 21 for the Prius, I doubt you would have wanted to include the Probe in your search.

 

With only 12 cu-ft of cargo space, compared to over 21 for the Prius, I doubt you would have wanted to include the Probe in your search.

That's with the rear seats up. Folded down the cargo space was somewhere in the 20 cu ft range. It was big enough that one night both me and my dog slept back there along with my luggage when we got stopped by bad weather ahead that closed the highway. It was also big enough that I put 40 wood-framed army cots back there on multiple occassions. The '93 and later model Probe's had about 18 cu ft of cargo space with the rear seats up. I'm guessing probably over 25 with the seats down.

 

With the Prius, you get 21 cu-ft and still have the use of the rear seats.

 

So about 15% more than the late-model Probes. Not a huge difference, but definitely a noticeable one.

 

But more than twice the cargo capacity of the model with which we are comparing.

At 80 cu-ft total interior space, even late model Probes are much smaller then the OP's car, which is 114 cu-ft, if memory serves. Since the OP has written many, many times now that interior space and cargo capacity were cirtical to his buying decision, then I believe his numbers still add up to an excellent choice.

 

MP$ isn't the same as MPG.

So true, and if you care about green issues, MP-BTU of fuel, MP-lb carbon and MP-lb emissions are also relevant.

I've been looking at diesel lately. My daughter just got an old Jetta that's giving her ~50mpg on the highway, and I wondered how that could be possible. I soon learned that a LOT of the difference is simply that diesel is more energy dense and has ~30% more BTU per gallon. So her mileage per BTU, versus gasoline cars, is still very good but no longer remarkable. I've later learned that, because of higher compression, a diesel can be inherently a bit more efficient than a lower compression gasoline engine. Throw in a turbocharger and some good German engineering and I think I understand the reasons for her great mileage.

 

Originally Posted by strantor
MP$ isn't the same as MPG.

On the subject of hybrid mpg, I just read in Motor Trend that Ford is on the wrong end of a class action lawsuit filed over it's hybrid because the actual mpg is so much lower than advertised. Ford has offered to pay each owner $550 and reprogram the internal control CPU to allegedly improve mileage.

The claimed mileage is 47 mpg and when Motor Trend tested it, it actually got 31 mpg on their mixed driving test course. Another data point from actual testing:

47-mpg EPA rating
The EPA ratings for the 2013 Fusion Hybrid are 47 mpg combined, with both city and highway ratings coming in at that same 47 mpg. We were eager to drive the Fusion Hybrid to see if it achieved better gas mileage results than the C-Max, with which it shares a powertrain and which seems to return 35 to 39 mpg for most drivers. The Fusion Hybrid weighs about as much as the C-Max, but it's longer and likely more aerodynamic, so we expected it to do slightly better.


It didn't.


On our usual test cycle, covering 244 miles this time--about two-thirds highway and one-third city and suburban driving--our Fusion Hybrid test car delivered 36.8 mpg. And we also noted that our test car told us its lifetime gas mileage, over 8,370 miles to date, was an even worse 34.7 mpg.


http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1082650_2013-ford-fusion-hybrid-quick-winter-gas-mileage-test

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/aug/15/autos/la-fi-hy-ford-cmax-fuel-economy-20130815

http://www.greencarreports.com/news...to-be-modified-to-boost-mpg-in-real-world-use

http://green.autoblog.com/2013/05/17/ford-hit-with-another-mpg-lawsuit-claim/

http://www.forthepeople.com/class-action-lawyers/ford-gas-mileage-lawsuit

 

It seems fairly predictable that gasoline cars will fall short of their EPA ratings (albeit not usually this badly) while diesel cars generally exceed their ratings. A bias tax against the German imports? Curious.

 

...................................

I've later learned that, because of higher compression, a diesel can be inherently a bit more efficient than a lower compression gasoline engine. Throw in a turbocharger and some good German engineering and I think I understand the reasons for her great mileage.

A related factor in the better mileage of a Diesel is that it always takes in a full-charge of air, even when idling (there is no throttling of the air flow), so it always operates with full compression pressure, which is the maximum efficiency point. Normal Otto Cycle gasoline engines need a variable compression ratio design to approach that efficiency.

 

It seems fairly predictable that gasoline cars will fall short of their EPA ratings (albeit not usually this badly) while diesel cars generally exceed their ratings.

In the Motor Trend issue where they tested the Ford hybrid and about six other cars head to head, I recall the Accord which was rated at 35 mpg got 35 mpg in the same combined test. It was a gas only car. So basically, it beat the hybrid for a lot less money. Not all gas cars miss their rating, but most do. I usually assume that any car will get at least 10 - 15% lower than what ever the EPA rating is. Of course, missing a 47 mpg rating by 16 mpg is pretty ridiculous....

 

However, Motor Trend tested the Prius slightly above it's 50MPG rating...

 

However, Motor Trend tested the Prius slightly above it's 50MPG rating...

Maybe a different Prius model, not this one:

Rated at 51 mpg city/48 mpg highway, it's nearly unbeatable. Drive it like you hate it -- because you inevitably think you do, since you're a car enthusiast -- and it still achieves numbers better than your average subcompact can hit on its best day. That works out to 41.3 mpg under the heavy right foot of an auto journalist.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/alternative/1308_2013_toyota_prius_four_first_test/

When you talk hybrids, you have to talk fuel economy because, after all, that's the entire point. The Prius V is rated at 44 city/40 highway and has a combined rating of 42 mpg. Pretty good, but the C-Max has even better EPA stats. It's rated at 47 mpg in every category. Better, right? Not so fast.
comparing these two cars, the Toyota returned 39.4 mpg combined, whereas the Ford was good for only 37.3 mpg.

​

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests...prius_v_vs_2013_ford_c_max_hybrid_comparison/
​

 

Don't overlook this:

That works out to 41.3 mpg under the heavy right foot of an auto journalist.

And this:

(the last time I did a big road trip with a Prius V, I kept it between 75 and 85 mph the whole time and averaged 38.7 mpg...
​

​

​

The Prius rates close or better than advertised MPG on Motor Trend's standard road tests, where all models are treated equally.

and it still achieves numbers better than your average subcompact can hit on its best day

 

and this:

Don't overlook this:

(the last time I did a big road trip with a Prius V, I kept it between 75 and 85 mph the whole time and averaged 38.7 mpg...

Prius V is the new half-SUV Prius, much larger than ordinary prius. It is sold overseas with 3rd row seats. Prius V is NOT advertised to get 50MPG.

 

and this:


Prius V is the new half-SUV Prius, much larger than ordinary prius. It is sold overseas with 3rd row seats. Prius V is NOT advertised to get 50MPG.

Good catch. That means the Prius V tested within 7.8% of it's advertised MPG despite speeds in great excess of how it's tested for rating.

Motor Trend tested the 2012 Prius and got 48.9 MPG in combined driving, vs 50 MPG claimed. That's a difference of only 2.2%.

 

and it still achieves numbers better than your average subcompact can hit on its best day

There are other members of the over 40 club that are not hybrids. And some of them are not subcompacts either.

http://www.edmunds.com/fuel-economy/the-40-mpg-challenge.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505145_162-57462568/can-these-cars-really-get-40-mpg/

In addition to the Volkswagen diesel, the Mazda 3i (42.5 MPG) and the Ford Focus SFE (41.4) topped 40 MPG in highway driving. In a portion of the test driven only on interstate highway -- more mileage friendly than the approximated route in the EPA testing -- the VW Passat diesel registered a startling 51.7 MPG. The Edmunds testers drove the route again just to double-check it.

 

There are other members of the over 40 club that are not hybrids. And some of them are not subcompacts either.

None of these cars, except for the Passat, got more than 40 in mixed city and highway driving:

Having an achievable 40 MPG rating is a good recommendation for any new car. But as these publications point out, typical car owners will be driving mostly in a mix of city and suburban settings. So you need to check out the combined mileage ratings, lower than 40 MPG for all these vehicles, at the government web site

 

My point is:

1) MOST hybrids have never gotten the mileage that they claim. Gas cars also fall short, but hybrids basic selling feature is gas mileage so it is MORE unacceptable to have a large gap between what they claim and what they do.

2) The gap between what hybrids get in MPG and what other (in many cases, cheaper) cars get has shrunk significantly.

3) If hybrids are all that and a bag of chips: THE FED SHOULD STOP USING MY TAX $ TO BRIBE PEOPLE INTO BUYING THEM.

If they can compete fairly in the open market place (and their increased gas mileage will induce enough people to buy them) then I say that's great.

But I am sick of subsidizing an industry that should be able to stand on it's own two feet by now.

 

The thread has from the beginning about the Toyota Prius, which as has been demonstrated, not only gets the advertised fuel economy in real world driving, but also is significanly more feul effeciently than any ice car in its class. Some other hybrids might get lesser fuel economy, but what other hybrids do is irrelevant to what is achieved by the prius. Wether its a bag of chips or not, the car gets great economy, and is an excellent choice for many drivers. No amount of pontificating to the contrary will chance that.


Besides, federal subsidies have been phased out for hybrids.