So. That new minimum wage thing. Might as well start disgusing it here.

JoeJester

Joined Apr 26, 2005
4,131
It is a basic human right to work for what you are worth.
I agree.

Neither the employee nor the government knows their value to the company.

I read an article 25 or so years ago about the wages in Taiwan. It seems everyone had a good idea of their value, employees and employers. Retaining good people was always high on the list, vice a continuing cycle of training and hiring. Within the wage discussion, since the employees had a good idea of their worth, based on the employment advertising, the employers had to cough up some cash to retain those who were worthy, as the grass could have been greener elsewhere.

I did find it interesting that in one of the links posted by @wayneh from one of my favorite economists, Walter Williams, cited a study that Hispanics had the lowest level of unemployment when the minimum wage increased.

Training wages, and internships are training positions, need to make a comeback. With the "minimum wage", internships wages can vanish to zero.
 

profbuxton

Joined Feb 21, 2014
419
Wayneh, That's a lot of rot. Look at your labour history in the early industrial era both in UK and US. Workers were only paid at a sufferance by wealthy industrialists. CEOs would get away with not paying wages at all if they could(slave labour).
Its only after workers forced companies to pay at least reasonable wages and start to take care of safer work conditions that workers could have a better standard of living.
Your own countries labour history should show you that it wouldn't matter how good you were employers will only pay grudgingly and if forced to. Would you like to see workers forced to work 4 hrs 6 days a week for a pittance. You wouldn't do it would you. Particularly when employers grow fat on your labour.
 

GopherT

Joined Nov 23, 2012
8,012
Wayneh, That's a lot of rot. Look at your labour history in the early industrial era both in UK and US. Workers were only paid at a sufferance by wealthy industrialists. CEOs would get away with not paying wages at all if they could(slave labour).
Its only after workers forced companies to pay at least reasonable wages and start to take care of safer work conditions that workers could have a better standard of living.
Your own countries labour history should show you that it wouldn't matter how good you were employers will only pay grudgingly and if forced to. Would you like to see workers forced to work 4 hrs 6 days a week for a pittance. You wouldn't do it would you. Particularly when employers grow fat on your labour.
People quickly forget how our grand-parents were treated. Now they whine that their kids can't get jobs because minimum wages are too high. Crap mentality. Then in another breath they imply that slave labor is so bad. Pick one my friends - a society that accepts a minimum wage law or a society that accepts slave labor. As Prof Buxton points out, employers will split the 5% unemployed with the 5% of people making minimum wage and work them into a reverse auction - offering their services for lower and lower prices. Not a nice lifestyle. Which one are you hoping your grad kids experience?
 
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GopherT

Joined Nov 23, 2012
8,012
Ask the coal miners in W Va.
And they still think coal is going on and on.
Then you need to watch the local news. They've been mad as hell about all the solar and wind subsidies for the past 10 years and, more recently, the big switch to natural gas for power plants. They think the end is near and are looking to put someone in their crosshairs because every problem must be caused by some single person and they want to solve their problem.
 

ronv

Joined Nov 12, 2008
3,770
Then you need to watch the local news. They've been mad as hell about all the solar and wind subsidies for the past 10 years and, more recently, the big switch to natural gas for power plants. They think the end is near and are looking to put someone in their crosshairs because every problem must be caused by some single person and they want to solve their problem.
Yep, I know. But it's a good example of a bunch of guys working in some pretty poor conditions that are going to be displaced by technology, be it solar, wind or fracking.
Then there is some politician to tell them don't worry, I'll save your job. Riiiiiight.....
Sorry some better stuff has come along. Better take the best package you can get and move on before wishing for a higher minimum wage.
The interesting part is that any of the new stuff will put people out of work. In the long run it just doesn't take as many people to frack as it does to dig coal, and the long term return on the renewables still beats it. These guys a scr**ed.
So does this lead us to the socialist model? What do we do with all these people?
 

jgessling

Joined Jul 31, 2009
82
With the price of marijuana plumeting as states legalize it and the minimum wage going up, the true workers paradise is upon us. Whoopee!
 

GopherT

Joined Nov 23, 2012
8,012
So does this lead us to the socialist model? What do we do with all these people?
That is the ultimate question! China is debating that from the socialist side right now - from a different perspective. Most homes in Norther china cities are heated with coal fired central heating systems (multi home/ community systems) that are poorly designed and cause lots of the particulate pollution/haze in the cities. The city governments are trying to convert these to natural gas while regional and national governments are trying to keep people in the coal mines employed and they are pushing to have more expensive secondary scrubbers and forced air combustion systems added to improve existing coal-fired systems.
 

Kermit2

Joined Feb 5, 2010
4,163
Coal is still to valuable to disappear. It is in the top 3 or four for energy density, and ease of use...you just get it out of the ground 99% ready to use, no refining. Still cheaper than nat. gas on a cost basis vs BTU available for electricity generation.
Nothing green and "renewable" but nuclear is that ready for prime time 24/7 deployment and dependability as fossil fuel. Still at least a decade or two until we know for sure if wind and solar can ever serve that role.
 

GopherT

Joined Nov 23, 2012
8,012
Coal is still to valuable to disappear. It is in the top 3 or four for energy density, and ease of use...you just get it out of the ground 99% ready to use, no refining. Still cheaper than nat. gas on a cost basis vs BTU available for electricity generation.
Nothing green and "renewable" but nuclear is that ready for prime time 24/7 deployment and dependability as fossil fuel. Still at least a decade or two until we know for sure if wind and solar can ever serve that role.
There is no doubt that coal will be around a long time but it has already taken a hit and will not likely grow. Electricity use is declining overall because of energy efficiency efforts (cfl and LED bulbs and the conversion to LCD TVs in homes, cheap lighting control systems for warehouses, better AC systems, ...). But the biggest effect is natural gas - huge changes in electricity generation. Interesting to see the coal-producing state of Pennsylvania implementing widespread conversion to natural gas (the new favorite child)

http://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.cfm?id=26012

Coal isn't the only one suffering. Westinghouse Nuclear Power, headquartered in Western, PA has cut staffing to the bone with weird, forced 6-day work weeks imposed on technical staff that remain - Apparently trying to minimize costs on the few projects that remain.
 

Kermit2

Joined Feb 5, 2010
4,163
If the press release from Lockheed Martin is any good we'll have small 50 MW fusion genny's online in a decade or so.

I'll keep my fingers crossed :)
 

GopherT

Joined Nov 23, 2012
8,012
If the press release from Lockheed Martin is any good we'll have small 50 MW fusion genny's online in a decade or so.

I'll keep my fingers crossed :)
That one has been discussed here before. I'll give it a "waiting for more details" rating.
 

ronv

Joined Nov 12, 2008
3,770
There is no doubt that coal will be around a long time but it has already taken a hit and will not likely grow. Electricity use is declining overall because of energy efficiency efforts (cfl and LED bulbs and the conversion to LCD TVs in homes, cheap lighting control systems for warehouses, better AC systems, ...). But the biggest effect is natural gas - huge changes in electricity generation. Interesting to see the coal-producing state of Pennsylvania implementing widespread conversion to natural gas (the new favorite child)

http://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.cfm?id=26012

Coal isn't the only one suffering. Westinghouse Nuclear Power, headquartered in Western, PA has cut staffing to the bone with weird, forced 6-day work weeks imposed on technical staff that remain - Apparently trying to minimize costs on the few projects that remain.
Speaking of Westinghouse - didn't they make phones once upon a time? I wonder what happened to all those people? They may be with all the people that used to build and repair TV sets I guess. Or maybe the picture tube companies.
We could maybe solve this by declaring war on pick and place machines.
 

ronv

Joined Nov 12, 2008
3,770
The power company here wants to change how they charge for electricity because solar is cutting into their margins. They want to separate the cost of the lines from the cost of electricity so they can charge you coming or going.:)
 

GopherT

Joined Nov 23, 2012
8,012
Speaking of Westinghouse - didn't they make phones once upon a time? I wonder what happened to all those people? They may be with all the people that used to build and repair TV sets I guess. Or maybe the picture tube companies.
We could maybe solve this by declaring war on pick and place machines.
The most common occupation for men in the US is driving. Trucks, taxis, postage and parcel, ...

How much research is going into driverless vehicles and drone delivery? What will this country's employment statistics look like in 10 years?
 

wayneh

Joined Sep 9, 2010
16,165
The most common occupation for men in the US is driving. Trucks, taxis, postage and parcel, ...

How much research is going into driverless vehicles and drone delivery? What will this country's employment statistics look like in 10 years?
It's not pretty. On the upside, there should be something of a manufacturing boomlet as people switch to autonomous vehicles. But that won't last long and, on the whole, there will be far fewer autonomous vehicles operating at higher duty cycles. It's such a waste to have so much iron sitting idle in people's garages. Eliminating that waste will create productivity. But all those drivers will need to find something else to do. Maybe there will be some landscaping jobs opening up soon? ;)
 

GopherT

Joined Nov 23, 2012
8,012
It's not pretty. On the upside, there should be something of a manufacturing boomlet as people switch to autonomous vehicles. But that won't last long and, on the whole, there will be far fewer autonomous vehicles operating at higher duty cycles. It's such a waste to have so much iron sitting idle in people's garages. Eliminating that waste will create productivity. But all those drivers will need to find something else to do. Maybe there will be some landscaping jobs opening up soon? ;)
Thanks, now I have an excuse to postpone that retaining wall project.
 

JoeJester

Joined Apr 26, 2005
4,131
@GopherT

Refer to IRS publication 17. You must report all income, foreign and domestic. This includes the fair market value of door prizes, bartered income, as you surely told who you barted with the value of you services and asked them to provide you with their figure.

Don't forget, if you take a bribe, you are required to report it.

They are reported as other income on line 21 of the form.

By the way.. Both parties are to report the value of goods and services they received.
 
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