Scientists Find the Holy Grail: the Reason Why Lithium-Metal Batteries Fail

Thread Starter

SamR

Joined Mar 19, 2019
4,601
20nanometer dendrite cracks in their electrolyte causing shorts on fast charging!
Scientists Find the Holy Grail: the Reason Why Lithium-Metal Batteries Fail (msn.com)

FYI
My adult autistic son is a certified fire fighter and told us their procedure for cars with lithium battery fires is first to move the vehicle to a safe location away from other vehicles or houses. Second is to push it into a metal shipping container brought by them to the site and close the doors. Third is to fog inside the container with some special material they have that is designed for that use to extinguish. OR, simply move it to a safe location and let it burn... The total amount of water to blanket the vehicle fire for ~4 hours waiting for it to burn out is enormous as it cannot be extinguished with water. So, they don't even try to.
 
Last edited:

Ian0

Joined Aug 7, 2020
7,441
Our company Health & Safety officer seems to have been making an informal study of electric vehicle fires, and says exactly the same about extinguishing them.
However, if dendrites are the cause, why do most fires seem to start on the motorway, not right next to the fast charger?
 

Thread Starter

SamR

Joined Mar 19, 2019
4,601
I can't help but think road vibration and potholes couldn't help but cause cracks or worsen those already there from manufacturing. Roadway collision fires and electric scooters parked do account for many. 20 nanometers is pretty darn small... Apparently fast charging exacerbates the cracking.
 

Jon Chandler

Joined Jun 12, 2008
607
This is an issue that has to be faced by Washington State Ferries and other car ferry operators. It's my understanding that one of the European Marine Certifying organizations has BANNED electric vehicles.

There's simply no way to fight an electric vehicle fire aboard a vessel. Fogging or foaming, used for fossile-fueled vehicle fires, don't work and can even make electric vehicle fires worse. The amount of water required to fight a fire could sink the vessel.

As the number of electric vehicles increase, the likelihood of having two or more in close proximity grows. Two possible results of an electric vehicle fire is burning through the relatively lightweight overhead into the passenger compartment or burning through the deck, dropping the flaming mass either to a car deck or engineering spaces below.

One possible "solution", with many environmental and other impacts, is pushing a burning vehicle overboard. Because the vessels often operate at capacity, this could mean pushing half a row of cars overboard to get to the burning one. It's not likely you'd get any cooperation from the vehicle owners to dump their car to get the flaming one overboard.
 

Ian0

Joined Aug 7, 2020
7,441
Still allowed by Eurotunnel, even though lpg cars are banned. I wouldn’t fancy being in 22 mile long tunnel under the sea along with a big lithium battery that is busy catching fire.
 

nsaspook

Joined Aug 27, 2009
11,260
https://slate.com/business/2023/02/...n-explode-new-york-city-delivery-workers.html
What It Takes for an E-Bike Battery to Explode
Once a battery goes into thermal runaway, there is essentially no way to stop it. “It’s not possible to put out one of these fires,” said Monaco, who has also worked in FDNY’s HazMat Company 1 for 18 years. Firefighters on the scene will focus on isolating the battery, often by putting it in a bathtub filled with water. “That’s not going to prevent thermal runaway. That’s going to prevent propagation. Most of the time, in the shower area, there are not a lot of other materials around,” Monaco said.

And the danger isn’t just from the flames—it also comes from gases the battery releases. “The toxic gases are pretty significant. They come on fast; they come on overwhelming. They can quickly overwhelm an apartment with toxic, flammable gases,” he said.
 
I wonder how bad this has to get before everyone wakes up to the fact that electric vehicles are not climate friendly. Their carbon footprint of manufacture is far greater than an ICE car and most of the charge power is generated by fossil fuel - essentially just pulling forward the carbon cost which is unlikely to be offset in their life time. Worse that my hard earned tax money is being used to subsidise this
 

MrSalts

Joined Apr 2, 2020
2,767
That polymer has a lot of Cs and Hs, and a lot of double bonds. That’s what I’d call a flammable polymer.
The image in their website is an overly simplified representation but, if you read the text, the say their polymer is a graphene - carbon blend. Not much hydrogen there. Not as dangerous as you imply.
 
Top