Question About Relativity And Length Contraction

Thread Starter

Glenn Holland

Joined Dec 26, 2014
703
I understand that objects moving at a significant fraction of the speed of light will experience a noticeable contraction in length. This follows from the wave/particle duality -IE- the fact that matter moves as a wave propagation. The particle wavelength is Planck's Constant / momentum where Planck's Constant ( h ) has the dimensions of energy X time.

I can visualize what happens when one end of an iron bar is pushed and it contracts as the particle wave travels toward the opposite end. However, if one end of the bar is pulled (instead of pushed), the particle wave will also travel toward the opposite end. However it seems that the bar would undergo an extension rather than a contraction.

I understand the Lorentz Transformation, but it does not include the direction (and location) of the applied force that's causing the object to accelerate. So can the location of the applied force change the length contraction to an extension?
 

crutschow

Joined Mar 14, 2008
34,473
The contraction is due to the relative speed to the observer of the object, not its acceleration, so the force applied to get it to speed is not related to the contraction.
 

bogosort

Joined Sep 24, 2011
696
I understand that objects moving at a significant fraction of the speed of light will experience a noticeable contraction in length. This follows from the wave/particle duality
Length contraction and time dilation are two consequences of imposing a hard speed limit on light. They have nothing to do with quantum mechanics or so-called wave/particle duality.

More importantly, these effects are frame dependent -- locally, regardless of your speed, your ruler is still 12-inches long and your clock ticks normally. From the perspective of an observer at rest relative to you, your ruler looks shorter and your clock appears slow, and the faster the relative velocity, the more pronounced these effects. This is a consequence of how distance is defined in spacetime, e.g., the Minkowski metric in flat spacetime.
 

Thread Starter

Glenn Holland

Joined Dec 26, 2014
703
However, Louis De Broglie proposed (and also demonstrated with a diffraction and scattering experiment) that the movement of matter was also quantumized similar to light.

Therefore it seems that a moving particle would also experience the Doppler Effect similar to what happens when a light source is moving in a given direction. In fact, the De Broglie's formula indicates that a particle wavelength becomes shorter with increasing speed. That's the statement wave particle duality.
 

BR-549

Joined Sep 22, 2013
4,928
If the electric field is quantized......the magnetic quantized......light quantized......mass and energy quantized.....wouldn't all measurements be quantized....regardless?
 

WBahn

Joined Mar 31, 2012
30,088
I understand that objects moving at a significant fraction of the speed of light will experience a noticeable contraction in length. This follows from the wave/particle duality -IE- the fact that matter moves as a wave propagation. The particle wavelength is Planck's Constant / momentum where Planck's Constant ( h ) has the dimensions of energy X time.

I can visualize what happens when one end of an iron bar is pushed and it contracts as the particle wave travels toward the opposite end. However, if one end of the bar is pulled (instead of pushed), the particle wave will also travel toward the opposite end. However it seems that the bar would undergo an extension rather than a contraction.

I understand the Lorentz Transformation, but it does not include the direction (and location) of the applied force that's causing the object to accelerate. So can the location of the applied force change the length contraction to an extension?
Your reasoning is essentially based on the notion that length contraction is due to the motion of one end of a bar being pushed taking a finite amount of time to reach the other end and thus the bar must be shorter during this time. While this affect is indeed the case -- and pulling on the bar therefore does result in a length extension -- this has absolutely nothing to do with relativistic length contraction. So your claim that you understand the Lorentz Transformation is clearly not true. Thus you need to step back and study relativistic motion and effects from the beginning.
 

Thread Starter

Glenn Holland

Joined Dec 26, 2014
703

Thread Starter

Glenn Holland

Joined Dec 26, 2014
703
Your reasoning is essentially based on the notion that length contraction is due to the motion of one end of a bar being pushed taking a finite amount of time to reach the other end and thus the bar must be shorter during this time. While this affect is indeed the case -- and pulling on the bar therefore does result in a length extension -- this has absolutely nothing to do with relativistic length contraction. So your claim that you understand the Lorentz Transformation is clearly not true. Thus you need to step back and study relativistic motion and effects from the beginning.
However, it seems that particle waves (the propagation of matter is quantumized) can explain changes in length and mass at any velocity. Otherwise what is happening to the particle while the wave is traveling from one end to the other? Otherwise the "space/time" model for explaining relativistic change seems like something from the Twilight Zone.
 

WBahn

Joined Mar 31, 2012
30,088
However, it seems that particle waves (the propagation of matter is quantumized) can explain changes in length and mass at any velocity. Otherwise what is happening to the particle while the wave is traveling from one end to the other? Otherwise the "space/time" model for explaining relativistic change seems like something from the Twilight Zone.
You are still trying to talk about apples to explain what oranges do.

Relativistic length contractions does not require ANY force to act in ANY direction on ANY object. You have a bar sitting in space at rest relative to you. You measure its length an any fashion you want. Along comes Alice travelling at some constant speed relative to you and she measures the length of the bar using whatever method she chooses. You later compare notes on what you each believe the length of the bar is.

Nowhere in here is any mention of any force being applied to the bar.
 

Thread Starter

Glenn Holland

Joined Dec 26, 2014
703
Here's another hair brained question about the propagation of light and the energy of photons.

If a light source (such as the headlights of a car) is moving in the same direction as the propagation of the light itself, there will be a Doppler effect and the wavelength will be decreased and the frequency ( f ) is also increased. However the energy ( E ) of the photons from the headlights is also increased in accordance with E = hf where h = Planck's Constant.

So does this increase in energy require work to be performed on the photons emitted from the light source? If that's the case, it would take more energy to move the car ahead with the headlights on than when they are off.
 

bogosort

Joined Sep 24, 2011
696
Here's another hair brained question about the propagation of light and the energy of photons.

If a light source (such as the headlights of a car) is moving in the same direction as the propagation of the light itself, there will be a Doppler effect and the wavelength will be decreased and the frequency ( f ) is also increased. However the energy ( E ) of the photons from the headlights is also increased in accordance with E = hf where h = Planck's Constant.

So does this increase in energy require work to be performed on the photons emitted from the light source? If that's the case, it would take more energy to move the car ahead with the headlights on than when they are off.
You need to be explicit about the reference frames involved in your analysis. In the rest frame of the moving car, there is no Doppler effect because the frequency of light doesn't change. In fact, we can always choose a frame in which the frequency goes up or down by practically any factor we wish. Since frequency is not invariant, it's not a fundamental physical property of light, rather it's an observer effect. The same is true for kinetic energy (velocity is frame-dependent).

Momentum, however, is indeed invariant and conserved. Since the light leaving the headlight has momentum, the car must lose an equivalent amount. You can make a few assumptions and calculate exactly how much but it'll be a tiny, insignificant number, far below our ability to measure it (the car has far more momentum).
 

BR-549

Joined Sep 22, 2013
4,928
The momentum of a photon.....is perpendicular to the photons path. A photon does not deliver a push or a pull.....it delivers a left torque and then a right torque. It dances the twist.

Frequency is most definitely a fundamental property of mass or matter and EM emission.

All matter has the same fundamental frequency.......this causes all the bonding frequencies to be specific harmonics........and only that set of frequencies. We have a very specific set of fundamental frequencies. These frequencies remain constant. Because space and time are constant.

All of the properties you study......are due to the STRUCTURE(which includes frequency) of charge.

The frequency....determines the physical size of the charge. Light can not come from charge....light is too long.....light comes from a charge bond. X-rays and higher come directly from charge.

The frequencies of charge are extremely high Q and pure......but an oscillating charge bond(dipole) has lots of phase noise.....due to temp and external fields. Acceleration can cause a phase change on a dipole. A charge clock would be much more stable than an atomic clock. Then you would measure a flat space. Which it is.
 

BR-549

Joined Sep 22, 2013
4,928
If linear mass momentum was used to levitate the object.....it wouldn't matter the size of the particle or the frequency of the laser. All that would be needed is laser amplitude to lift any object.

But it does matter. Resonance is what is holding the particle. An angular momentum. Twisting fields hold the object. This is what holds atoms and the universe together. Resonance.
 
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