I think he just changed tactics, since chasing around Afganistan didn't work out too well. Too easy for the to hide in plain site. Iraq is more of a duck-hunt, you sit and wait for the 'ducks' to come to you. Probably why no effort seems to have been made to close the borders. Iraq is a country that borders most every other middle eastern country, sort of like sitting in the middle of the pond, where 'ducks frequent...

This may make sense to somebody but, unfortunately, makes no sense to me whatsoever.

Nuclear weapons protect no one, are are a danger to everyone. Doesn't matter where on earth the bomb goes off, everyone gets to share in the results, even the people it's supposedly protecting. We've had them for more then 60 years, but haven't used them since WWII. Doesn't seem to support you views on America. If we didn't care about life, as control, why wouldn't we use them? We are responsable enough never to use them. Iran barely admits to having a weapons program, or an interest in pursuing nuclear weapons, how do you know their intent is purely for threat purposes? What of the next leader of Iran?

As has already been said, the only country which has used nuclear weapons is America and as I have said, America has a long history of aggression and interference which other countries like Iran do not have. You just do not seem to get the notion that all evidence points against America being a responsible country which lets others live in peace. It has a long history of interfering around the world. Comparing the histories of external aggression of the USA and of Iran that of the USA is a hundred times longer. At least. America has a long history of interference and agression in the MENA, Latin America and other parts of the world. Now pray tell when was the last time Iran attacked anyone, much less a western country. When?

Not worth going into another 'Evil American' tirade...

This is ridiculous. You ask me what wrong or damage did America do in Iraq, I give you a long list of wrongs and damages and your response is "Not worth going into another 'Evil American' tirade." It is just ridiculous. What I gave you are facts. If you think the facts are untrue then please point it out otherwise it is the facts which are "anti-american" not me. If people keep calling you a thief maybe the way to stop it is to stop stealing and not to just say people call you a thief because they don't like you. Maybe it is that they don't like you because you are a thief and it would all stop if you just stopped stealing.

You just start off from the unquestionable premise that America has a right to be in Iraq but that no one has a right to attack America. This is ridiculous. If you live by the sword you better be ready to die by the sword. If you attack other countries you better be ready for those people to try to fight you off. Assuming anything else is just ridiculous.

You can't blame America for everything... Bigger and better weapons have been a goal of most any warring people. It's also the natural order of the animal kindom.

So you'll have to accept that if America can have them so can others. Or did I miss the page in the Bible where God said America was entitled to rule the world?

Being an American, I'll never accept that my country is the cause all evil in this world. It was here a long time before the europeans took the lands from the native people (bastards).

I never said America is the cause of all evil. Again you are making up straw men. I am saying Iran has good reason to want nukes and as much right to have them as anyone else and that they will have them and that it will not make the world a worse place but maybe even better as America will cease its aggressive posturing. That's all.

And, by the way, European countries, although to a lesser degree, are part of the same problem. While they are not doing the kind of attrocities America is doing, they are guilty of looking the other way and sometimes even helping. They are guilty of not having denounced forcefully enough American violations of European sovereignty, and even of having collaborated in some cases in the running of secret prisons. That is shameful and should be denounced. The USA, if they want to have friendly relations with Europe, should not be allowed to be doing illegal things and breaking European laws. There is no way the USA would allow others to be doing such things on their soil.

Like the kidnapping by the CIA in Italy of a person who was sent to be tortured in Egypt http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article511059.ece

Like the running of the secret torture prisons in some eastern European countries.

Like the secret rendition flights over Europe which were concealed and used to deliver persons to torture sites.

Like the illegal spying and accessing of financial data in Europe.
It is America doing these things, not Iran.

 

While i disagree with Mr. GS3's claims about Americans (not American policy though)..

There may be a misunderstanding here but I am not sure I know what you mean when you say my "claims about Americans". What are those? Because I have made it clear that all my American friends and family unreservedly condemn these actions by the American government and I know full well that a large percentage of Americans do as well. I have also said that I think many Americans who support these policies are doing so out of fear and ignorance (just like the extremists from the other side of the world are motivated by fear and ignorance). I have also said that many American soldiers are victims of the policies of their own government.

Can you tell me exactly what it is you disagree with?

 

Can you tell me exactly what it is you disagree with?

well i have been following this thread and the other who's the enemy thread for a long time,
and there were a few comments which not only me but a few others found as directed towards American citizens in general.one point i'll PM u so that if it was overlooked it should remain so.
i had a lot to say then and a lot to say now but since i m a bit busy i'll make a post later.

 

I think he just changed tactics, since chasing around Afganistan didn't work out too well. Too easy for the to hide in plain site. Iraq is more of a duck-hunt, you sit and wait for the 'ducks' to come to you. Probably why no effort seems to have been made to close the borders. Iraq is a country that borders most every other middle eastern country, sort of like sitting in the middle of the pond, where 'ducks frequent....

On re-reading this I think I understand what you mean: that America has the right to invade other countries when it suits them and that it is just too bad for the Iraqi people that America wanted to take over Iraq. I get it.

recca02, I will be happy to discuss, explain and maintain or correct anything I have said if you wish to discuss it but I do not want to drag you into the discussion if you do not wish to do so. I will add a general explanation which may help interpret the particular point you raise and also may just be helpful for anyone who is reading along. It definitely raises an interesting point which I have addressed before but maybe not sufficiently. It has to do with the differentiation between individuals and the people/country they belong to. I have tried to make this difference quite clear in earlier posts.

American individuals are not directly responsible for this immorality. Some support it and some oppose it. The American people as a people *are* responsible for what is being done in their name.
[. . .]
(Again, my judgment is of America as a country and as a people and not a reflection on any individual. None of my American friends support any of this.)

the American people, as a people and through their elected representatives are going along with this

The American people, again, as a people, still believe they have a right to rule other countries.

So, you can see I do differentiate between individuals and the American people as a whole and I think it is a very valid distinction. If you work for XYZ Corp you and many other employees may oppose certain policies of XYZ but it is still fair to say they are the policies of XYZ as a whole. As a member of any group of people, a company, a club, a church you know the entitry has its own personality distinct from its individual members. This is just as true or even more so when speaking of peoples.

I think it is not unfair to attribute general traits to a people even when they may not apply to many individuals of that group. There is such thing as public opinion which is the weighted sum total of individual opinions. To invent a simple example, it could be that 10% are strongly against X (I chose a neutral issue just to avoid more problems), 40 % are neutral, 20% are in favor with reservations and 30% are strongly in favor. The weighted average would give you a position which makes it fair to say that the group is in favor of X even though 50% are neutral or against X. Given how things are, the laws and policies of the place and public opinion will be in favor of X.

Again, if you are part of a group and the group is found liable and is fined X dollars, you as an individual may have nothing to do with it and may even have been against what caused the fine, but the group, as a group, will have to pay and it will come out of the pockets of its members.

So, I think it makes sense to talk about the American people, as a people, separate and distinct from every American individual.

Now, if I make an assertion about a people as a people, as a group, it makes no sense to provide an anecdote which contradicts it but it can be contradicted by evidence that those people as a group do not fit the assertion.

I hope this clarifies some of my posts. In any case I am always willing to clarify and explain as needed.

 

Well, I started this thread, tolerated all the hate, but since GS3 seems bent on stearing the discussion away from nuclear weapons, and keep it on his own reasoning on why everyone should hate Americans. There is no reason to continue it.

GS3, start your own thread, don't 'bully' your topic into someone elses...

Moderator, please close this after GS3 has a chance to follow with 2-3 pages of rants, rave, cites, and self congragulatory comments. I'm through with it.

 

Well, I started this thread, tolerated all the hate, but since GS3 seems bent on stearing the discussion away from nuclear weapons, and keep it on his own reasoning on why everyone should hate Americans. There is no reason to continue it.

GS3, start your own thread, don't 'bully' your topic into someone elses...

Moderator, please close this after GS3 has a chance to follow with 2-3 pages of rants, rave, cites, and self congragulatory comments. I'm through with it.

What hate? What you hate is that you can't make a convincing argument to support your point. Look it is very simple: Make two columns and label them America and Iran. Now, list under each one all the acts of aggression against other countries in the last, say, 200 years. Things like wars, coups, like the one by the CIA against democratically elected Iranian president Mohammed Mossadegh, Chile, Argentina, etc. Now, I may be mistaken but I believe the list under America will be quite a bit longer. If I am wrong you can correct me. But assuming the list reveals America has a lot more aggression towards other countries in its history, can you please explain in simple terms to me why any reasonable person should believe America is a more peaceful country than Iran? Because you know, I just don't get it. I am willing to read and listen and think but you have to make a convincing argument and so far you have not. Why is Iran to be considered more aggressive than America when all recent history points in the oposite direction? Please explain.

If that does not go to the point of the thread I don't know what does.

But you cannot make a convincing argument and you want the thread closed. You want to take your ball and go home if you cannot win. Well, no, I hope that is not how it works. Once you open a topic for discussion you do not own the thread and it is open for anyone to post whatever they want.

I think I am being reasonable and addressing in a reasonable way every argument put to me. If you cannot do the same don't blame me. Blame the facts if you feel they have an "anti-American" inclination.

 

Moderator, please close this after GS3 has a chance to follow with 2-3 pages of rants, rave, cites, and self congragulatory comments. I'm through with it.

At the request of the OP, this thread is now closed. This thread will only be reopened at the request of the OP or one of the Moderators.

Dave