North vs. South

cmartinez

Joined Jan 17, 2007
6,886
Monopoles have only recently been shown to exist in nature though they were theoretically possible before
That's news to me... last thing I heard, is that they're theoretical entities but have never been detected. In fact, a significant number of scientists doubt they're actually real.

Do you have a specific source supporting that claim?
 

BR-549

Joined Sep 22, 2013
4,938
One can not FIND a monopole. You MIGHT synth an APPARENT one.

Edit: The M flux inside a toroid core, is one close way to get to a monopole. And that would be a uni-pole.
 

joeyd999

Joined Jun 6, 2011
4,371
Monopoles have only recently been shown to exist in nature though they were theoretically possible before, with lots of extra rules governing them.
On the other hand, "natural" monopolies only exist because of the extra rules governing them (more precisely: governing their competitors)...
 

MrChips

Joined Oct 2, 2009
20,882
Let's get this straight.

1) North and South are arbitrary names.
2) The North geographic pole is accepted as the one nearest to the Arctic Circle.
3) The end of the compass that points to geographic North is declared to be a north magnetic pole, i.e. it is the geographic North seeking pole.
4) Therefore the Earth's south magnetic pole is located in the vicinity of the Earth's geographic North.
Keeping on topic of north vs south, when the Earth's magnetic poles flip orientation, things will become weird.

All your compasses with red painted ends will now point South. You will have to change your definition of North seeking pole of a compass needle. If you don't do that then all your right hand rules will now become left hand rules, unless you change the direction of current to electron flow.

Agghh! My head hurts too!:eek:

Hopefully I wouldn't be around when that happens.:D
 

BR-549

Joined Sep 22, 2013
4,938
Charge and current have handedness. This affects, the direction of the magnetic dipole.

DC parallel, but separate, a left handed wound coil and a right handed wound coil.

Core them with iron.

The left hand coil will produce a S magnetic pole, in the direction of actual(electron) current.

The right handed coil will produce a N magnetic pole in the direction of actual(electron) current.

The flux opens at the N pole and closes at the S. If you bend and close the coil, most of the flux will remain in the closed dipole state, within the coil, expressing neither a N or a S pole. Just an internal pole-less direction. A uni-pole.

So, a battery and a coil of wire, a nail.......can predict and detect the Polarity of a known and therefore an un-known magnetic pole.
 
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MrAl

Joined Jun 17, 2014
7,487
Charge and current have handedness. This affects, the direction of the magnetic dipole.

DC parallel, but separate, a left handed wound coil and a right handed wound coil.

Core them with iron.

The left hand coil will produce a S magnetic pole, in the direction of actual(electron) current.

The right handed coil will produce a N magnetic pole in the direction of actual(electron) current.

The flux opens at the N pole and closes at the S. If you bend and close the coil, most of the flux will remain in the closed dipole state, within the coil, expressing neither a N or a S pole. Just an internal pole-less direction. A uni-pole.

So, a battery and a coil of wire, a nail.......can predict and detect the Polarity of a known and therefore an un-known magnetic pole.

Hi,

QUOTE
The left hand coil will produce a S magnetic pole, in the direction of actual(electron) current.
The right handed coil will produce a N magnetic pole in the direction of actual(electron) current.
ENDQUOTE

That's never the way it works. The field is always at right angles to the current. See Biot Savart et al.
 

BR-549

Joined Sep 22, 2013
4,938
A coil configuration turns or bends the field 90 degrees. Making the field, parallel or anti-parallel to the electric..... or to the current flow.

Or you may think of it as the coil turning the current 90 degrees to the electric.

And it always works.
 

SamR

Joined Mar 19, 2019
2,025
Keeping on topic of north vs south, when the Earth's magnetic poles flip orientation, things will become weird.
One of the sites stated that it occurs periodically and the geologic evidence points at 2000 years ago??? What evidence??? I thought it was armageddon when it flipped??? It's all too confusing as it is now. Especially with joey throwing monopolies into the discussion LOL.
 

MrAl

Joined Jun 17, 2014
7,487
One of the sites stated that it occurs periodically and the geologic evidence points at 2000 years ago??? What evidence??? I thought it was armageddon when it flipped??? It's all too confusing as it is now. Especially with joey throwing monopolies into the discussion LOL.
Isnt it measured in rocks and/or ocean cores?
 

SamR

Joined Mar 19, 2019
2,025
Isnt it measured in rocks and/or ocean cores?
What is "it"??? I have no idea what they are referring to? If I remember correctly the root cause of Earth's magnetic field is our liquid iron core and it's sloshing around can cause the poles to swap? Then what happens other than compass direction suddenly changes? Every time the US Geological Survey printed a new map about every 10 - 20 years on it's compass rose it would notate the deflection between True mapped North and magnetic North and good compasses are adjustable to compensate for the local deviation. Which is constantly changing albeit not by very much. The actual deviation can be a few degrees or not hardly any if at all.
 

MrAl

Joined Jun 17, 2014
7,487
What is "it"??? I have no idea what they are referring to? If I remember correctly the root cause of Earth's magnetic field is our liquid iron core and it's sloshing around can cause the poles to swap? Then what happens other than compass direction suddenly changes? Every time the US Geological Survey printed a new map about every 10 - 20 years on it's compass rose it would notate the deflection between True mapped North and magnetic North and good compasses are adjustable to compensate for the local deviation. Which is constantly changing albeit not by very much. The actual deviation can be a few degrees or not hardly any if at all.
No i was talking very long term measurements where certain natural materials indicate large pole shifts much unlike those of today.
 

SamR

Joined Mar 19, 2019
2,025
long term measurements where certain natural materials indicate
That's just it, what natural materials. I took some geology and paleontology in college and the paleontology indicates times of drastic changes in flora and fauna, but what indicates magnetic changes?
 

MrAl

Joined Jun 17, 2014
7,487
That's just it, what natural materials. I took some geology and paleontology in college and the paleontology indicates times of drastic changes in flora and fauna, but what indicates magnetic changes?
Didnt i mention that?
I think certain rocks and core samples possibly in the oceans.

This could be a subject on the edge of geology so it may not be widely taught, yet.
 

SamR

Joined Mar 19, 2019
2,025
My geology was 40+ years ago. Curious as to just what it is they see that says "hey the Poles swapped". My understanding was that it would be a near-extinction catastrophic event. Of which there have been several in the paleologic records usually attributed to water or ash evidence.
 

MrAl

Joined Jun 17, 2014
7,487
My geology was 40+ years ago. Curious as to just what it is they see that says "hey the Poles swapped". My understanding was that it would be a near-extinction catastrophic event. Of which there have been several in the paleologic records usually attributed to water or ash evidence.
Hello,

That's if it changed abruptly maybe.

Core samples at the ocean floor provide a lot of evidence of what happened during its history so there would be many, many tests performed.
If we wanted to know material properties (such as composition) we'd test for various chemicals, which i am sure they do.
So if we wanted to know magnetic properties we'd test for various things one of which i assume is the orientation. This would be done with very sensitive equipment, testing for both ferro and paramagnetic properties and maybe other stuff too.
I suppose if you see a twist in the pole orientation that would indicate that the earths mag field changed gradually over years.
 

profbuxton

Joined Feb 21, 2014
419
Apparently it is possible to detect magnetic polarity in some rock formations when they cooled from a liquid state and this has been used to explain possible "flips" in the magnetic poles.
My problem is wether the apparent flips in the rocks isn't from huge earthquake and seismic activity instead. We have a cave where I live that has dinosaur footprints. Not unusual . you say! But when i was shown them and asked where, "There, up on the ceiling of the cave". I had this vision of dinos laying on their backs making footprints on the ceiling chuckling to themselves "Let 'em work this out".
I dread to think what could result if the poles do flip and only go halfway so somewhere around the equator becomes north and the other side becomes south. Now that would be interesting.
 
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