Then in doubt never ever assume. I have learned this the hard way

 

I agree with you

 

Like the Rooster,In Image of the chicken.
Fear not the mirrow
It olny reflects our Image.
I will awaken when the
Rooster crows.Until then
Goodnite to All.

 

About learning the hard way..

I agree that this is the finest forum on the web.
Have you even checked out 90% of the "My kick a$$ car" forums?
Those guys are meat-headed dunces. Ego goes overboard and they dont "really" help anyone. They give a schematic and call it a day.

The person on the receiving end of the schematic figures, "geez, Im dumb. This should be really easy" So they are afraid to return to ask questions if they get stumped.

Not so here. We can sense if someone is new and green. SgtWookie will be one of the first people to recommend a smaller easier to complete project with a greater chance of success and if id does fail, it just doesnt work. Then they will return, get the answers and continue on their education.

If a kid posts saying "Hey dudzzzzzzzz. I gotz a PHAT 2011 Focus, (ITZ HOTTTTTTT) and I want to put electronic controlled HYDROZ LIFTAHZ on it!
So I gotz a question? What is the hot wire?"

First, he will be directed to check his keyboard for stuck keys, and to grab his Little Brown Handbook from english class, and to use spell check.

Then he will be asked if he has any experience with any projects, soldering, reading schematics or wiring diagrams ,and if these are legal in his state.
If they seem to immature or green, they will be told so and they will be directed to the eBook or other sources, and let know that this is a job for a PROFESSIONAL MECHANIC.


We already do a great job of handling this.

If someone wants to install a light bulb in there gas tank because their gauge is broken and they want to be able to look down the fill neck to see how much gas is left..
...they will be informed that it is a horrendous idea, and it would be better to just FIX THE GAUGE. Check fuses and the such.

As with any other post on this forum, If you dont know, dont answer. Wait for someone with knowledge of the topic to initiate the responses..or the fellah gets zero replies.

 

OK, how about this as a list in the rules and regs. I'll include part of the rules as a reference to where I think it might go.

Forum members must not knowingly provide any information that may adversely affect another member; this includes, but is not restricted to, information that may potentially result in injury, death, damage or destruction of property and possessions. The administration takes this matter seriously and has the right to remove any contentious content and deal with the offending member as it deems is necessary.

A partial list of subjects considered too dangerous or illegal to be allowed on the forum might include:

• Transformerless power supplies: You may save money not using a transformer, but it could cost you your life (or worse, someone elses). They can not be made safe, so they will not be allowed on the forum.

• LEDs connected to house voltage and outlets. They exist commercially, but the manufacturer is responsible to make them safe.

• Shocking people with high voltage. Meant as a joke, these circuits can kill.

High voltage circuits are a legitimate topic. It is the application of the high voltage that may be in violation.
​

• Rail Guns, anything that involves a high energy projectile is dangerous by definition.

• Competence counts. Two posters want to build a Tesla Coil. A hobbyist who has been doing it for many years and is aware where the dangers are will get help, while a beginner will not. The questions asked will distinguish one from another. This also includes high power lasers and RF circuits.
  

• Modifying a car in a manner that will make it unsafe, especially for other people. This includes emission controls, brake lights and turn signals, obvious distractions while driving, and on board safety system modifications.

• Pyrotechnics of any kind, with the possible exception of model rockets as defined by the National Association of Rocketry.

Any subject not listed but in the opinion of the moderators and administrators as being dangerous can be closed at their discretion.


***************

How's that?

 

Fine by me. A short and clear list. By the way if a poster want to system for electronic ignition of fireworks. Will that be considered hazardous. As it may increase the safety for the operator. No big deal anyway...

 

Fine by me. A short and clear list. By the way if a poster want to system for electronic ignition of fireworks. Will that be considered hazardous. As it may increase the safety for the operator. No big deal anyway...

Don't know. I do know we have had a post asking how to detonate high explosive, I kid you not. Soon as that little tidbit came out the thread was closed.

A model rocket is considered a class 3 firework, for what it is worth. I have never figured out how they can sell them in cities (not complaining mind, I like rockets).

 

I think that is good and to the point.

We can always use the alert button to catch a moderators attention for clarification.

 

You have fire cracker on line,what do you do.

 

You have fire cracker on line,what do you do.

If the OP makes the connection to model rockets, you refer them to model rocket launchers, which is highly standardized and very safe if established procedures followed.

Google NAR if you are interested.

 

OK, how about this as a list in the rules and regs. I'll include part of the rules as a reference to where I think it might go.

Forum members must not knowingly provide any information that may adversely affect another member; this includes, but is not restricted to, information that may potentially result in injury, death, damage or destruction of property and possessions. The administration takes this matter seriously and has the right to remove any contentious content and deal with the offending member as it deems is necessary.

I know the intent is good, but the application may be opposite what you expect. In my particular field of work, you could be sued for anything you did on the basis of alleged negligence. The burden was on the plaintiff to prove negligence. However, if there was a rule and you merely deviated from the rule, that could be considered prima facia evidence of negligence and the burden was then put on the defendant to prove the deviation was necessary. I strongly recommend leaving such rules that could be broadly interpreted out. "Just stick to the facts, mam."

Suggested deletions or changes are underlined. I hope the rationale is obvious. Otherwise, I would be happy to explain.

A partial list of subjects considered too dangerous or illegal to be allowed on the forum might include:

• Transformerless power supplies: You may save money not using a transformer, but They it could cost you your life (or worse, someone elses). They can not be made safe, so they will not be allowed on the forum.

• LEDs connected to house voltage and outlets. They exist commercially, but the manufacturer is responsible to make them safe.

• 
  [*]Shocking people: with high voltage. Such circuits may be meant as a joke, but these circuits can kill.

[*]

High voltage circuits are a legitimate topic. It is the application of the high voltage that may be in violation.
​

• Rail Guns , anything that involves a high energy projectile is dangerous by definition.​
  
  

• 
  [*]Competence counts. Two posters want to build a Tesla Coil. A hobbyist who has been doing it for many years and is aware where the dangers are will get help, while a beginner will not. The questions asked will distinguish one from another. This also includes high power lasers and RF circuits.
  (rationale: not all readers of the thread may have the same competence assumed for the OP)

• Modifying a car in a manner that will make it unsafe, especially for other people. This includes emission controls, brake lights and turn signals, obvious distractions while driving, and on board safety system modifications.(see comment below)

• Pyrotechnics of any kind, with the possible exception of model rockets as defined by the National Association of Rocketry.

Any subject not listed but in the opinion of the moderators and administrators as being dangerous can be closed at their discretion.


***************

How's that?

Comment regarding cars: I agree on exclusion of emission controls, but my reason is not safety as much as it is illegal. I disagree on whether turn signals and brake lights should be excluded. In my experience in Houston and Cleveland, most of the time turn signals are not used. If someone modified theirs to work incorrectly, it might never be noticed. More seriously, how can we allow anti-collision lighting for aircraft and low fuel sensors to be discussed, but not allow a tun signal to be discussed?

Edit: I can't get the high voltage thing in the right format to indicate deleting it. I would delete the whole thing, as basically it is saying that to allow high voltage circuits is a moderator decision, which has already been said.

 

What is to stop someone from asking for a model rocket igniter, and them adapting it to high explosives?

 

What is to stop someone from asking for a model rocket igniter, and them adapting it to high explosives?

Themselves. Not us.

They are the negligent party for misusing the technology.

Just like gun manufacturers make guns for clay targets. Nutjobs use them for murder.

Even though FORD makes a car that does 110+ mph EVEN though there is NO ROAD in America where you can legally go that fast, it is the drivers fault for speeding.. not the car manufacturers.

If you help me put a NOS system in my car and I get ticketed for speeding, you dont get in trouble for "helping".

 

Tomorrow is Holiday.

 

So you disagree with the competence comment? There are examples of this throughout the forum, noobs wanting to install aircraft lights, while a professional asking for help repairing an old xenon design got complete help.

I think I could find similar examples with all three of the examples, it was also mentioned that it is a partial list, not meant to be complete by way of example. We don't want to kill all discussions on these subjects, and we don't. This is the reason.

I disagree with the emissions not being a safety issue. My mom died a long slow death due to COPD, which is directly related. I've been out and about in Dallas during Red Ozone Alert days, we are choking here.

I basically agree with you on the brake and stop lights, but in the end it is the moderators decision.

 

There are basically two reasons I do not feel competence of the OP should be a factor in deciding what is allowed to be discussed. Sure, anyone who responds can take that factor into consideration as to the complexity of advice they give, but the focus here is what should be allowed on the forum.

1) An assessment of competence is a personal characteristic that I suspect most members here are pretty poor at doing from just one or two posts. It is a very risky step into forms of discrimination that are clearly rejected by everyone here. Who has the wisdom to see through language and cultural barriers to determine an individuals competence? What if that wise person errs on the side of allowing dangerous posts by an incompetent person who writes questions well?

Some individuals may be extremely competent but lack good judgment. You know the old saying about fools being so ingenious.

Others might be well versed in many areas of electronics and mathematics, but lack experience in one particular aspect for which they come here for help. Their question might sound like a noob to some. I don't think they should be discriminated against because of that. In fact, as related to safety, good judgment is the greater issue, which simply cannot be determined on this forum.

2) Most important, this is a public forum. Help given to one member is available to all members, irrespective of their competence or lack of judgment. Search engines can and will find the thread.

I think we agree on limitations related to safety, but are just having a hard time defining how to do it. I am for having very few, simple rules that are to be followed 100% of the time by everyone, somewhat like a STOP sign. They will be stated simply and without a lot of explanation. If the forum bans devices that shock people, it does not have to say why that was done in the list of prohibited topics. Note however, the preface to that list might include the rationale behind creating the list. In other words, as we put up STOP signs, lets not make them look like this :

I am very sorry to hear about your mother dying from COPD. I hope you did not think I ignore the importance of man made pollution.

John

 

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the competence issue. I've seen too many cases where someone pretending to be a professional gave themselves away with really basic misconceptions. Electronics has a lot of basic concepts that we take for granted, but have to be drummed into beginners. The fact is we have helped amateur radio types and tesla coil hobbyists while rejecting other posts from people who were wanting to jump in with both feet. The policy already exists de facto, this puts it in writing.

In the end, the moderators will modify it to suite themselves. I started this thread and Things that close your thread to clarify some points. We saw some real hostility on the latter, mostly in the form of PM to me. One guy even managed to get himself banned, which is probably a record.

You'll not I mentioned high power lasers will get easier with time? I wasn't joking, this is a field I have a nodding acquaintance. You can buy off the shelf laser pointers that burn paper. High power RF transmitters are no joke either, but lots of people do them. They should not be a first project.

Sure they can find the thread, but they can't pretend to be the OP. Give anyone time and they can build up to where they want to be.

 

Here's another thread to add fuel to the fire:
http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=35327
The push-button ignition thread that's been kicking around for a year or so.

The circuit has no protection against things like load dumps. Many people would probably just connect it up to the battery. A real n00b might even do so without a fuse. The OP in question here is an automotive tech, so they aren't a n00b to vehicle maintenance, but are a n00b to electronics.

As far as safety issues here goes, my opinion is that a vehicle who's engine either stops running or fails to start is not a safety issue. A vehicle that will not STOP, or which could have runaway acceleration, would definitely be a safety issue.

 

I think this entire topic has lost it, as have some of the contributors.

Let’s swing the discussion towards the influence of the church around the time of Galileo or Newton, or the banning by the <unnamed> government on playing with the atom, or let’s flap our gums discussing human cell modification or any one of a thousand other “taboo” topics.

With AAC, or without AAC, many experimenters will “doink” with the electron. With or without YOUR contribution.

If AAC, as an entity, is eligible for a lawsuit liability because of a suggestion, hint, or a design provided by a Moderator or a Contributor, then QUIT contributing. If YOUR conscience is the limiting factor, then bail. (Quit! Find something else to do!) However, if AAC (including Moderators and Contributors as a whole, or as an individual) is NOT doomed to dissection and destruction by the courts, then Moderators and/or Contributors may/should decide individually whether they wish to contribute.

When do you (you – as an individual) avoid attempting a task because of a fear of the unknown? Some things yes, other things no. We’ll hit the search engines and do a little research, and if we gain enough confidence to tackle the job, we’ll give it a spin. Please realize AAC is simply one source of knowledge on the entire Internet. If you feel others may trigger a reaction that will destroy the universe, say so. Or not. If you cannot sleep at night because of a suggestion you may make, quit posting, and above all, quit reading the posts of others.

Don’t tell me the world is flat and chain my ankles to a tree if I decide to determine differently. No one should have the power to prevent folks from asking questions. You have only the power to not respond, to not become involved and you should (must) not have the power to mute someone else. If you must become involved either because of moral responsibility or vanity, express yourself, by all means. But let’s not waste our time trying to write a million word constitution on what members in the year 2010 will decide - for all time – of what is acceptable, and what is taboo. Let’s not start a legal precedence we’ll never finish. And, please, let’s not abandon the rights of others to express themselves, and let us never refuse others their right to learn.

Do not tell me I shall not develop something because YOU think I shouldn’t TRY. “Hey, I know something you don’t, but I’m not sharing it because there is risk, I possess the powers of a Greek God - and I know an inexperienced Thor will trash the neighborhood.” Instead, express your concerns, your experience, your knowledge, then sit down and shut up.

I’m betting I’m heading for the disembowelment toilet, a lifetime ban. And this is my first post!! <grin> So, let me express how I feel about the recent Toyota mess.

Integrating software (firmware) and hardware is an extremely delicate balance. If you’ve never written code and programmed a PIC around a circuit you or others have penned, this statement may be a complete loss. Many, many, many companies with highly trained engineers and programmers write simulators to test every possible operating condition against every word of code of firmware. The hobbyist does not have these resources, I don’t have these resources, but I refuse to not get involved, I refuse to not poke a couple of components into a breadboard after writing a little code. I refuse to let my inquiring mind turn to dust because someone may object to my tinkering, or imperfections. The courts will drag and beat Toyota to determine liability, Toyota (and others) will have the research into the cause of the errors buried so deep other engineers will never have a chance to learn from Toyota’s mistakes – all at another impending risk to the consumer.

If AAC has a liability, shut ‘er down. Shut down the entire Internet. Each author of every post has THEIR OWN morality to realize. There are other hobbyist forums, each poster on each site must realize what he/she has the right and obligation to censure --- only their own pen. Please, not mine. Parents learn quickly that yelling NO at their children has little effect. Instead, better parents learn to EXPLAIN (without criticism or judgment) WHY something should or should not happen. What if all the other cavemen yelled “No! No fire!!!” <grin> Explain your opinion WHY someone should not attempt a task, pen your opinion for Internet users to read for the next 1000 years, and leave it at that. From a piece of amber to the transporter and beyond, life will go on, and somebody will tinker with the electron. The Dark Ages are trying to die, let it go.

In closing, I suggest you have your attorney write a blanket liability release for your signature field. And please, put away your matches; book burning and the suppression of knowledge has been trying to permanently die since before the 1950’s and the vacuum tube.

(This post will probably ripple. I’m on a couple programming forums, Microchip forums, the PICAXE forum (causing the motivation to express my opinion here), the excellent diylightanimation forum (where folks regularly play with ‘mains’ voltages,) several other electronics forums, Ford truck forums and Chevy truck forums (where people build engines, transmissions, and wire and build entire vehicles,) a couple of dating and social sites (where some folks broadcast their resistance to falling in love ever again) and I have a couple of babbling blogs. Please, feel free to express yourself on any of ‘em, and on the forums of your choice, but muting others (or me) should never be an option. Not anymore, not since suppression of human expression has been abandoned globally!!! Well, many of us are still working for it…)

- joe

 

Well welcome to ACC. I dont think we should take the role of big government and opress knowledge. Just do what you feel comfortable and dont do what you dont feel comfortable.