Do you mean the before or after version?

 

Do you mean the before or after version?

That reminds me... did you ever notice how sometimes food smells like shit and (less frequently) vise versa? Like when you walk into the house and smell beans cooking, and it smells like an elephant dropped ass in the foyer? Until you ask "what on earth is that stench?" And you're told it's food, and then some switch is triggered in your head and that same smell no longer evokes images of flies buzzing around a steamy dog pile, but instead gets your guts churning like a pavlovian bell?

 

Cabbage soup. Ethnic cooking you're not familiar with. Yeah, there are a lot of examples of things that your brain thinks could be something to avoid. Once it gets placed in the food column, I guess your brain turns off the warning system.

The first time I ate raccoon, my brain was seriously conflicted. The smell was horrendous but I could see other people eating and even enjoying it, so I tried it. It was surprisingly good, in its own way. But you sure don't want to cook it inside your house!

 

Venus would be a far better choice for a first visit than Mars, imo.

Is that because women are from Venus and men are from Mars?

 

What if a non-DNA virus killed Mars?

What if DNA life had no protection against it?

 

Is that because women are from Venus and men are from Mars?

That does seem plausible being I have met more women that I care to admit to that from a distance looked like they were warm and inviting but in reality once I got closer I found out they had a thick highly caustic personality atmosphere around them.

 

Cabbage soup. Ethnic cooking you're not familiar with. Yeah, there are a lot of examples of things that your brain thinks could be something to avoid. Once it gets placed in the food column, I guess your brain turns off the warning system.

The first time I ate raccoon, my brain was seriously conflicted. The smell was horrendous but I could see other people eating and even enjoying it, so I tried it. It was surprisingly good, in its own way. But you sure don't want to cook it inside your house!

Speaking of ethnic cooking; This one time in the Philippines...
A waitress put a bowl of soup in front of me called pinapaitan. It smelled like a goat's ass. I figured it must be one of those things that smells gross but tastes good. It tasted like a goat's ass smells. I asked my father in law "why does this smell and taste like a goat's ass?" He didn't know the word to describe it so he explained where it came from: Something to the effect of "After the goat has been killed, its intestines are removed, and the last bit of the small intestine is squeezed out into the soup." And I replied "so, there is literally goat shit in this soup?" He said no, and tried to argue that it was not "goat shit soup" but I continued to argue that if it looks, smells, and tastes like goat shit soup, what else could it be? Turns out the word he was looking for was "bile" but even after having read it, I maintain that it's goat shit.

 

Venus would be a far better choice for a first visit than Mars, imo.

Ummm... I take it you are familiar with Venusian atmospheric and surface conditions? If so - whatcha have against NASA?

Best regards
HP

 

Venus? 860 F (460 C), day or night? Really? I would invest in a mission more suitable for life.

 

That and being at ~92 bar (~1320 PSI) would make things feel a bit strange as your skin cooks off your bones without boiling.

But the sulfuric acid rain might help distract you from the thermal burning sensation though.

 

Harrowing indeed are the cares of The Land of The Widdershins Sun!

TTFN
HP

 

You guys dismiss Venus because you're thinking about landing on the surface. If you are happy to 'simply' (har har) orbit Venus, or even fly around in its atmosphere it is a far better candidate than Mars.

Twice as close to the sun, so you straight away get four times as much electric power (yeah not quite that simple but still) just for being there.

Thinking about the positives of the atmosphere, the thick atmosphere would offer some protection from solar radiation (which combined with weak magnetic field (produced differently than Earth's!)) reduces radiation to somewhat acceptable levels. Also protection from meteors. CO2 abundance allows you to, in theory, produce oxygen and carbon. Relatively high amounts of Nitrogen for growing foods too. Bonus: around 50km above the surface, you get a pressure of 1 earth atm. So you won't need heavy spacesuits to deal with the pressures. Yes, it will still be rather toasty at 70C (158F), but firefighting clothing we have today can withstand prolonged temps up to 800C (like, 1500F). You would also be above most of the sulfuric rain, but that's no biggy.

The deal breaker though is that Venus has a gravity 0.9 times that of Earth, slowing down stuff like bone loss. Yeah, you see astronauts on the treadmill or whatever on the ISS, but that doesnt really compare, especially when other systems like blood flow are much harder to 'fix'.

So let's compare that to Mars, which has a gravity less than half of Earth (no technology is realistically going to 'solve' this soon), has an average temperature of -60C (-76F), gets waaaay less solar energy and has virtually no atmosphere even on the surface (0.001 earth atm). Suddenly Venus doesnt seem so silly.

And Venus is on average twice as close as Mars, so it's cheaper to get there too.

But how to stay in the sky for so long? Airships. Added bonus, Earth's air is lighter than Venus' atmosphere, so you dont need to fill you airships with dangerous gases.

Of course, if your airships breaks down you fall to a somewhat unpleasant demise, but then you would still be susceptible to such risks with your suits as walk around the surface on Mars.

I'll finish with a NASA concept:

Edit: Nice to see you can embed videos in posts now! Great job whoever did this.

 

Venus would be a far better choice for a first visit than Mars, imo.

It would be much harder too...

 

When it is possible to print food, I will buy one!

Imagine that... that would be a perfect match for your practical streak...

 

It would be much harder too...

How so?

 

You guys dismiss Venus because you're thinking about landing on the surface. If you are happy to 'simply' (har har) orbit Venus, or even fly around in its atmosphere it is a far better candidate than Mars.

Twice as close to the sun, so you straight away get four times as much electric power (yeah not quite that simple but still) just for being there.

Thinking about the positives of the atmosphere, the thick atmosphere would offer some protection from solar radiation (which combined with weak magnetic field (produced differently than Earth's!)) reduces radiation to somewhat acceptable levels. Also protection from meteors. CO2 abundance allows you to, in theory, produce oxygen and carbon. Relatively high amounts of Nitrogen for growing foods too. Bonus: around 50km above the surface, you get a pressure of 1 earth atm. So you won't need heavy spacesuits to deal with the pressures. Yes, it will still be rather toasty at 70C (158F), but firefighting clothing we have today can withstand prolonged temps up to 800C (like, 1500F). You would also be above most of the sulfuric rain, but that's no biggy.

The deal breaker though is that Venus has a gravity 0.9 times that of Earth, slowing down stuff like bone loss. Yeah, you see astronauts on the treadmill or whatever on the ISS, but that doesnt really compare, especially when other systems like blood flow are much harder to 'fix'.

So let's compare that to Mars, which has a gravity less than half of Earth (no technology is realistically going to 'solve' this soon), has an average temperature of -60C (-76F), gets waaaay less solar energy and has virtually no atmosphere even on the surface (0.001 earth atm). Suddenly Venus doesnt seem so silly.

And Venus is on average twice as close as Mars, so it's cheaper to get there too.

But how to stay in the sky for so long? Airships. Added bonus, Earth's air is lighter than Venus' atmosphere, so you dont need to fill you airships with dangerous gases.

Of course, if your airships breaks down you fall to a somewhat unpleasant demise, but then you would still be susceptible to such risks with your suits as walk around the surface on Mars.

I'll finish with a NASA concept:

Edit: Nice to see you can embed videos in posts now! Great job whoever did this.

Yebut... I thought the idea was to investigate a planet preparatory to terraformation? The challenges attending establishment and maintenance of 'floating cities', etc... would seem many 'orders of magnitude' beyond those of terrestrial habitation of Mars... (My $.02)

Best regards
HP

 

How so?

Well, first allow me to clarify that I hadn't yet read your post #32 before making my comment... since I thought that you were referring to actually placing humans on the surface.

gotta get busy... more comments coming soon

 

My point was that Venus would be better/easier to visit than Mars. At the very least to gain experience in interplanetary missions. Why try building a ship to take you over the Atlantic when you havent crossed the Mediterranean?

Also, I didnt say going to Venus would be easy. Just how does it compare to Mars? Big airships are hard to work, but how hard compared to building and living on the surface of a planet that has very little else to offer you?

You say that the idea is to eventually terraform. Well, terraforming a planet throws up a whole bunch of legal and ethical issues, but lets leave those aside and assume Humanity has decided to terraform either Venus or Mars first. Venus has a bad atmosphere at ground level. But stripping an atmosphere to acceptable pressure would be far easier than trying to make one on Mars, that will continually disappear into space. Furthermore, it is quite feasible that extremeophiles could be genetically altered to feed on Venus' atm and produce an atmosphere comparable to our own.

Again, gravity is the big problem. There is no feasible technology to increase the gravity of a planet (or anything). So yeah, you might walk around on Mars, but you'll likely not have a fun time doing it as your bones and heart weaken, etc. Venus doesnt have this problem nearly as much.

 

it is quite feasible that extremeophiles could be genetically altered to feed on Venus' atm and produce an atmosphere comparable to our own.

On this point (at least) I beg to differ -- Many (IMO all) key organic molecules would undergo pyrolysis at said temps -- As to the pressure? - Although I'm tempted to quip "Le Châtelier would have something to say about that" - I must grant that certain 'deep sea' organisms tend to demonstrate otherwise...

But stripping an atmosphere to acceptable pressure would be far easier than trying to make one on Mars, that will continually disappear into space

While I'll grant that Martian gravitation poses significant problems Re: maintenance of (acceptable) barometric pressure and atmospheric retention -- I seriously doubt said callenges so much as distantly approach those of 'adjusting' the Venusian atmosphere for human habitation...

As far as legal/ethical (IOW political) issues? -- None in sight - UNLESS, of course, said planet is natively inhabited! - A potentiality I'll leave in abeyance for the nonce!

Best regards
HP

 

Again, you're assuming that the only place such extremeophiles will live in is at the ground. Thermophiles have been found living quite happily (lol) upto like 122C on Earth, which would be quite easy in parts of Venus' atmosphere.

"While I'll grant that Martian gravitation poses significant problems Re: maintenance of (acceptable) barometric pressure and atmospheric retention -- I seriously doubt said callenges so much as distantly approach those of 'adjusting' the Venusian atmosphere for human habitation..."

How though? What remotely feasible technology is capable of generating gravity? Or a planetary sized magnetic field? Even if you live in bubble cities, you will still be under a gravity of 0.4 Earths. That is not pleasant.

I'm not saying Venus is easy - terraforming is never going to be easy. But if you are looking to make a near twin of Earth, Venus is at least within the realms of possibility.

Slight tangent, but there is actually quite a large mish mash of legal talk and ethics around terraforming. I think the Outer Space Treaty, for one, requires that you ensure stuff you send up is free of contamination. Terraforming is basically not doing this, and then some. Also, there is the whole UN thing about stuff in space not belonging to any nation (ie space is for all of mankind), which kind of rules out any country doing funky stuff. Regarding individuals it is slightly more fuzzy, but the effect of barring nations seems to feed down to companies/individuals. Antarctica is a good example of this, where despite having the tech to, no nation/company has really done anything to the environment. Ethical arguments are easily google-able, but I dont really care about those.

I should say, I feel that the first planet humans will visit will be Mars. But only more to do with cultural reasons and our obsession with the surface. Either way I will be happy to see someone visit another planet in my life.