I had a ton of mercury thermometers now i have none and it's hard to find one now.

If your looking for some mercury, find some of the old round style furnace thermostats. The use a vial of mercury to turn the furnace on and off. It doesn't spark or wear out like a regular switch is why it was used.
https://www.thespruce.com/anatomy-of-the-furnace-thermostat-1824779

 

Did the test in seawater instead, very strong neodymium magnets; probes on 50mV/div with no results. Is something wrong to test it that way ?

----> https://www.dropbox.com/s/k8pyawdbm9kp149/P1010946.MOV?dl=0

 

Did the test in seawater instead, very strong neodymium magnets; probes on 50mV/div with no results. Is something wrong to test it that way ?


----> https://www.dropbox.com/s/k8pyawdbm9kp149/P1010946.MOV?dl=0

It isn't likely that you will observe much of anything using that set up. First of all the magnet must be moving in some symmetric fashion. A spinning magnet will generate a flow of current in the direction of its axis but only if a conductive path has been established (ie. a circuit).

The magnet could also be rotated around a point. Preferably with the face of one of the poles facing inward. Depending on the conductivity of the dielectric you should be able to measure some current flow. Assuming your probes are properly positioned.

In any case it still won't be a whole lot of current. An alternator for example would be capable of generating much more power than any spinning fluid possibly could (by several orders of magnitude at that).

 

probes on 50mV/div with no results

If the liquid is strongly conducting the induced current won't produce much of a potential difference.

 

In manufacturing sites that use large quantities of sodium metal or potassium metal, the metals are often melted and then pumped with the electromagnetic method shown above. Other methods have proven unreliable or not safe enough (any air or humidity that may access the system can cause oxides to form in the molten metal). This method allows a system that is completely enclosed and no wires entering the system, no moving parts to wear and no gaskets/seals to leak. The pumps are terribly inefficient and generate a lot of heat yet they are still the "state of the art".

 

Hello again,

Another point is the shape of the magnet. It cant be just any shape or else it might cause too much of a whirlpool which means the fluid would be swirling around the magnet which is not what we want. We want the fluid as stable as possible.
The general class of shapes is probably just what is known as a solid of revolution. That is a solid that is generated by rotating something around an axis such as the 'y' axis.
The magnet would take on that shape.
The reason being that if the shape is too unsymmetrical then it will cause a large torque on the fluid itself which means it will swirl.
Some of the shapes that would work best would include a sphere, a cylinder, a cone but not a pyramid.
The surface should be as smooth as possible also because surface friction will also cause a torque on the fluid but not as much as a very unsymmetrical shape such as an "L" shape.
The magnetic orientation has to be right too. For example, for the sphere shape with magnetization across the poles, the poles should be oriented along the horizontal axis. This will also cause some torque but i dont think there is any way out of that completely.
The cylinder shape would have to be magnetized across the circular faces, which would be rare to find i think. It would also be rare to find a cone magnetized with the right orientation also.

Luckily we do have rotational inertia on our side. The fluid being so dense will have significant resistance to rotation at least for a while. That means that with the right magnet shape it will not start to swirl for the first few moments perhaps giving enough time to take readings. Since this is not really pure resistance it is really inertia that means that it will eventually speed up. The break even point will be where the friction at the interface of the shape and fluid and the friction at the interface of the fluid and the container walls becomes equal. That will be the maximum speed of the swirl, and so the magnet should still be spinning faster than the fluid. How much more though may be hard to predict as the surface imperfections come into play and they are hard to determine without actually performing this experiment and taking some measurements.

Here is an interesting shape that would work too, much different than the more common ones:
x=sqrt(((y-5)^3+150)^2-y^2)
That gets rotated about the 'y' axis and so that line describes the outline of the shape as viewed from one side, on one side. That's just one example of a huge number of shapes that could work but the magnetization has to be along the horizontal assuming magnet rotation about the 'y' axis.

It will be interesting to hear more about how this goes and what the measurements come out to be.

 

If your looking for some mercury, find some of the old round style furnace thermostats. The use a vial of mercury to turn the furnace on and off. It doesn't spark or wear out like a regular switch is why it was used.
https://www.thespruce.com/anatomy-of-the-furnace-thermostat-1824779

Hi,

I was really hoping to get another mercury thermometer not sure if they are allowed to sell them anymore though. It sux i had at least 5 of them in the distant past and dont remember what happened to them after several moves over the years.

 

Let's discard the mercury thing that has badly derailed the topic enough. It is now seawater. Please forget continuing the Hg discussion.

Second try: Placed the same plastic container shown on the video at post #22 on top of very strong neodymium magnets N S N S poles aimed upwards and spun the sea water with a plastic rod instead of submerging a magnet. Same no voltage response on the oscilloscope.
Moving the magnet outside the seawater container did not register voltage at electrodes either.

How would you 'design' the test to register if some voltage develops when a magnet is moved in seawater ? Or if you prefer, seawater moving around a magnet ?

 

First understand what's happening.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...uid_flow_induced_by_a_rotating_magnetic_field

Salt water with a few tens of ohm per inch would require sensitive probes across the points of max induced EMF in the conductive fluid but the point would be rotating/moving because even a small amount of torque would make a liquid spin/move.

 

Let's discard the mercury thing that has badly derailed the topic enough. It is now seawater. Please forget continuing the Hg discussion.

Second try: Placed the same plastic container shown on the video at post #22 on top of very strong neodymium magnets N S N S poles aimed upwards and spun the sea water with a plastic rod instead of submerging a magnet. Same no voltage response on the oscilloscope.
Moving the magnet outside the seawater container did not register voltage at electrodes either.

How would you 'design' the test to register if some voltage develops when a magnet is moved in seawater ? Or if you prefer, seawater moving around a magnet ?

View attachment 271898

Hello again,

Oh no mercury? Gee im gonna miss that discussion

I seriously doubt using seawater will be easy. You need sensitive equipment and probably have to bring in some statistical methods.
But seawater is so different than mercury. Seawater doesnt have nearly as much mass density so it's harder to get to stand still, and as nsa said it is conductive enough to mean it will be hard to read the voltage drop. I seriously doubt you can spin the water fast enough to get anything much out of it.

In these cases you usually take the experiment to the limits of what is possible and for you probably what you can afford.
That means getting the biggest magnet you can get, and designing the container to be a little more suited to the experiment.
They make some really really strong rare earth magnets these days take a look around. They are big and a little dangerous too you can clamp your fingers pretty good with the big ones, but you need to increase the response any way you can.
Another idea is since the water is not very dense, design the container such that the center part is a hollow cylinder where the magnet goes and the water is in the outer region. This way when the magnet spins the water will not feel the spin via friction. This would make the container look like a cylindrical donut. You also do want to take advantage of the rotational mass even though it is lower, by doing the experiment as fast as possible, taking readings as quick as you can.
To take it a little farther to the limits, spin the magnet as fast as possible and get it up to speed as quickly as possible. I would think a Dremel could help here.

To take readings you could have two probes sticking into the container from the sides, one at 0 degrees and the other at 180 degrees. That gives you the most distance over which to measure any voltage drop.

So the parameters are mainly...
1. Strongest magnet.
2. Fastest speed of the magnet and large acceleration.
3. Physical isolation of the magnet and water.
4. Take readings as quickly as possible right after the magnet begins to spin.

If that doesnt work, you probably have to resort to statistical methods. Statistical methods are used when it is hard to get a reading any other way because the response is so low.

One statistical method here would be to create several containers with several magnets and several separate water regions with two probes per set. Wire the probes in series, then start all the motors at the same time. If you have N containers set up and you get a voltage reading of E volts, the voltage for each container is then simply E/N volts. You may end up needing a lot of container set ups though but some sensitive experiments just are not that easy to perform.

You should also report back here so we can find out how you did with it and what the results were.

 

Thanks, Al.

1. Strongest magnet.
2. Fastest speed of the magnet and large acceleration.
3. Physical isolation of the magnet and water.
4. Take readings as quickly as possible right after the magnet begins to spin.

-The brutal magnets made me drip blood everywhere for an hour when assembled the bar shown. Still have the biting scar 3mm x 3mm x 3mm and will have it at least for a week more.
-Fastest speed... will have to work on that. Magnets are about 7 ounces.
-First test had the magnet inside a plastic bag, but to avoid corrosion.
-Oscilloscope is kept hooked to the electrodes.

 

Just my simple minded opinion about this whole thing whether using mercury , sea water or anything else you can think of. If there is no separation of the liquid, by that I mean insulation, how can a voltage or anything be measured? If even something would be generated(doubtful) it would be shorted as soon as it appeared. Think of the windings in a generator, motor or alternator, if the insulation in a coil is damaged, compromised, they won't work, because they are shorted out.

 

Just my simple minded opinion about this whole thing whether using mercury , sea water or anything else you can think of. If there is no separation of the liquid, by that I mean insulation, how can a voltage or anything be measured? If even something would be generated(doubtful) it would be shorted as soon as it appeared. Think of the windings in a generator, motor or alternator, if the insulation in a coil is damaged, compromised, they won't work, because they are shorted out.

There are induced eddy currents but I have no idea how you’d go about measuring their voltage. You might be able to infer the voltage from the current as determined by the mass and acceleration of the conducting liquid but that sounds like it would require more math than I even know exists.

Direct measurement seems improbable.

 

Just my simple minded opinion about this whole thing whether using mercury , sea water or anything else you can think of. If there is no separation of the liquid, by that I mean insulation, how can a voltage or anything be measured? If even something would be generated(doubtful) it would be shorted as soon as it appeared. Think of the windings in a generator, motor or alternator, if the insulation in a coil is damaged, compromised, they won't work, because they are shorted out.

Anything conductive also has resistance, except for a superconductor.
That means if a current flows through it, there will be a voltage drop. The voltage drop depends on the current of course, but also on the resistance. The higher the resistance the higher the voltage drop.

 

There are induced eddy currents but I have no idea how you’d go about measuring their voltage. You might be able to infer the voltage from the current as determined by the mass and acceleration of the conducting liquid but that sounds like it would require more math than I even know exists.

Direct measurement seems improbable.

Hi,

I was thinking current as in a wire where the fluid in the container acts as the wire in this case.

If the container was in the shape of a donut with vertical sides, the magnet can be in the middle compartment and would not come into contact with the fluid. If a set of hall effect sensors was placed into the fluid in the right way, maybe they would pick up some current.

A more elaborate setup could have a container with a spiral cavity where the fluid goes. It would look like a really thick wire spring except instead of steel there would be just a hollow plastic spiral filled with the fluid. The magnet would spin in the center area of the spiral. As the magnet spins it would influence all the fluid in the spiral container and since all the fluid is in 'series' it would make for a larger voltage drop. So one probe at the bottom of the spiral and one at the top. Oh and BTW the container has to have both top and bottom ends connected by fluid also (unless a wire could be placed in the right way) so a double spiral with two magnets would be even better. One where the fluid would flow 'up' if allowed to flow, and the other where the fluid would flow 'down'. That setup should give two times the effect of just one spiral.

A lot of experiments done today require specially designed equipment you dont just through a container bough in a store at it and hope for the best. They often and almost always required some machine shop work and possibly a host of other processes just to get the right setup. Look at what it took to build the LHC. That was because the things to be measured had to be manipulated in a certain way and the measurements required special devices to make the measurements. So a hollow spiral container (or anything else that may at first sound exotic) would be a much simpler device much easier to manufacture than the LHC.

 

Very little of energy moved into in the system (seawater magnet) will be present as electrical energy to be measured as an output function because the small amount of energy transferred from the spinning magnetic field is converted to the KE of moving water while the rest will mainly be converted to heat.

 

I can't remember the name of the man, but sometime in era of WW2 there was a German that claimed he could produce anti gravity by spinning a magnet in mercury. Is this what we're discussing here? The idea not being spoken out loud by the TS?

Think he, the man, had something to do with the NAZI Bell experiments.

 

Very little of energy moved into in the system (seawater magnet) will be present as electrical energy to be measured as an output function because the small amount of energy transferred from the spinning magnetic field is converted to the KE of moving water while the rest will mainly be converted to heat.

Hi,

Not with proper container design. That's why i mentioned the 'donut' sort of shape with the magnet in the middle. To do this experiment we dont need the magnet to touch the water just be very close to the water.

I'm not sure what the point of all this is though, does it matter if the sea water and magnet produces a little electric current? Maybe some industrial application?

 

Hi,

Not with proper container design. That's why i mentioned the 'donut' sort of shape with the magnet in the middle. To do this experiment we dont need the magnet to touch the water just be very close to the water.

I'm not sure what the point of all this is though, does it matter if the sea water and magnet produces a little electric current? Maybe some industrial application?

It's a learning experience. His configuration is not a generator of electrical energy, it's a fluid drive that's very inefficient in the conversion of mechanical force to an EMF from a changing magnetic field(the battery below) for moving the fluid.

 

I can't remember the name of the man, but sometime in era of WW2 there was a German that claimed he could produce anti gravity by spinning a magnet in mercury.

OK looked through some of my information and found the guy/inventor, his name was Viktor Schauberger. And his engine was the Vortex engine. There are many companies to day trying to replicate and advance his ideas, but most are using them as a "free energy" thing.

http://discaircraft.greyfalcon.us/Viktor Schauberger.htm

https://www.google.com/search?q=vik...gBpAGSAQMwLjGYAQCgAQHIAQjAAQE&sclient=gws-wiz