# Looking for an electronic partner for lucative project

#### jwsigler

Joined Feb 2, 2018
11
I did this on a forum many years ago and it worked out great. I own a small business and I am looking for a skilled electronics person who is interested in partnering on a lucrative project. The ideal person would have to be capable of designing and prototyping a microprocessor, with user interface; that is capable of powering a 6x6 array of electromagnets. You must be able to develop the circuit to drive the electromagnets (probably using op amps) and then interface the circuit to the microcontroller. The magnets will need to be individually turned on, have their polarity reversed, and then be turned off with microsecond timing and driven by the microprocessor at a max rate of about 300Hz. The technical challenge as I see it is to be able to rapidly energize the magnet field, and then instantaneously reverse the field to negative full power polarity.

Currently I have created a computer simulation assuming ideal electronic performance and so far the simulation shows the project has a large margin of success. The plan is to 1) create a small scale unit of 3-4 electromagnets in order to obtain real world test data. 2) Use this test data to benchmark the simulation and then rerun the fullscale model to insure that a finish unit will work, 3) once a final design is determined, fabricate a prototype unit to solicit both government and private funding for full scale development and production. I expect that instantaneous polarity reversal will not be achievable, but once I can get some test data we can them use the simulation model to determine if there is a workable solution within the real world limits.

The potential for this project is large. Conservatively I would estimate 7-8 figures annually when we are in production. The product would be like a printer in that it will have a base unit and consumables (understand, it is not a printer). Anyone using the unit ($2000) would be consuming the consumable components at a rate of about$500 - \$1000 per year. This is similar to what consumers are spending on out-dated items they are currently using so there is market history showing consumers are willing to pay these costs. This will be a huge leap forward in technology for this product line and consumers would be willing to pay for it. The project is unique enough that we will have patent protection on the base unit as well as the consumables, so there will be no competition. The market itself is large. There is potential for tens of thousands of units in the government sector, and hundreds of thousands of units in the commercial/private section.

The person I am looking for must be able to handle all of the electronic aspects previously discussed. I am looking for a hands-on person. The person also needs to currently have a fulltime job because in the initial stage this will not be a funded effort. If we get past the prototype stage and get development money, then the person will need to permanently come on board full time. My goal is to establish a company to be the only one producing this project. We will produce the base unit as well as set up an automated production line to produce the consumable items. I am looking for someone located in the Los Angeles, Orange County area so we can have personal contact. I have a small shop with cnc lathe and mills that will allow us to make all the prototype hardware. I do have some limited electronic equipment such as programmable power supplies, function generators, and digital oscilloscope to support the project. I also have data acquisition units and other specialized equipment that will be needed for testing. Ideally my plan would be to relocate the company prior to going into full scale production to a more business friendly state like Utah, Arizona, Oregon or whatever. I would what a small population area were we could get large acreage for person homes, large acreage for a plant with test facility, and not have to deal with crowded city life. Of course we will need to be civilized enough to have good internet and local shipping/receiving for raw components. Snow for a month or so a year would be fine, but I am looking to be able to run a highly profitable company, but in a small town environment.

I am 61, so I am not opposed to an older partner, but I am looking for a hands-on person, not someone who could only direct someone else to do the work. You will get dirty, but I will guarantee you will have fun. Personal compatibility will be important since I am look at this being a long term partnership starting with the proof of principle stage and finishing with running a profitable company. I am also not looking for someone to get the company started and then leave, so there will be contract clauses which will make it unprofitable for a partner to sell off his share. I do not want to get saddled with some fool at a later date that I do not have the final choice on working with. My plan would be to develop the product, get the company up and running, and eventually turn control over to my son who is currently studying computer engineering.I would like a partner who has similar life goals.

PM me if you are interested and tell me about your electronics background and experience, especially any work you have done using op-amps to drive a magnet field. This could be work with electromagnets themselves, or work with electronic fields in stepper motors or linear motor design. For the right person, I can meet you at your place to discuss things further after the proper Non disclosure and non-compete agreements are signed.

#### BobTPH

Joined Jun 5, 2013
3,785
The biggest challenge I see is the infinite voltage required to change polarity of an electromagnet instantaneously.

Bob

#### Alec_t

Joined Sep 17, 2013
12,248
Welcome to AAC!
I am not the person you are looking for, but am intrigued by the project.
A few technical points:
1) Current takes time to build up in inductors, so how do you plan to get 'microsecond timing' in the polarity reversal? The implication is that for electromagnets of any decent size you would need very high driver voltages. [Bob beat me to it ]
2) Generating rapidly changing magnetic fields will create EMI. How will that be suppressed?
3) Those changing fields will induce eddy currents in nearby metallic objects and consequently are likely to cause audible vibrations, which would be annoying at 300Hz.
4) Have potential health issues been considered?

#### WBahn

Joined Mar 31, 2012
26,398
You might want to at least give SOME idea of the inductance of these electromagnets and the maximum current you are talking about. It might help put some scale to what you are asking.

Instantaneous polarity reversal is simply not possible -- it would violate Conservation of Energy. So what is the smallest amount of time that would be acceptable to go from max polarity one direction to max the other?

#### Papabravo

Joined Feb 24, 2006
16,947
What will prevent some other crafty enterprise from beating you to the punch?

#### jwsigler

Joined Feb 2, 2018
11
Luckily everyone remembered that I did say I did not know a lot about electronics. So thanks for not tearing me apart on the electronics technical issues.

While I would be thrilled to see the magnetic field as a perfect square wave, going from positive to negative; I know that there will be some transition period. There will be some amount of decay and rise time associated with switching polarity. It is due to these real life issues, that my plan is to look at a scaled down version with only 3-4 coils in order to determine what the limits are. Once I get a handle on the limits I can update my system simulation model to see if the overall project is still doable, and what are the possible tradeoffs to make this work in reallife. I am a big believer in computer simulations to avoid a lot of costly "cut and try", and constantly refining / updating the computer model with real life test data. It is not unusual for my computer models to have numerous "coefficients" in them to make the model fit real world test data, and then use the "adjusted" model to evaluate the full scale system.

My current problem is that I do not have the electronics background, which is why I thought to search out someone who has that knowledge and who might me interested in a lucrative project. As someone has already alluded to, I need to be careful about someone else stealing my idea, which is why I am being very vague about most of the details. I was kind of hesitant to even reveal that there would be a 6x6 array operating at 300 Hz, but that is probably not enough to give the whole project away.

As far as numbers for inductance, voltage, etc; that may be too much information to release on a public forum. I had a robotics project many years ago and posted on a robotic forum and got lucky. I found a guy who was local, we worked together for several years on a Government program and we both did quite well. Eventually the program ended and he now has a job back east, but we are still friends. Even after the project closed, while he was still out here we use to go riding in the desert together and stuff. I am just hoping to get lucky again and this time the project will be ours and we will run the business together until we get old and die. One thing I do find out with most of the people I know my age, they are comfortable in the jobs they have and the older they get the less inclined they are to taking risks. Even though I am trying to minimize risks and everyone keeps working their day job until we get far enough along to have fulltime funding, my friend are just too comfortable or do not have the technical skills.

That is why I figured I would start looking on a forum such as this.

#### crutschow

Joined Mar 14, 2008
27,902
Without an approximate inductance value it can't be determined whether what you want to do is feasible.

#### BobaMosfet

Joined Jul 1, 2009
1,879
Without anything else known, just going by frequency, I chose an arbitrary inductance value. TP didn't say DC .v. AC, so I'm assuming AC.

XL = 2piFL
= 2 x 3.141592653 x 300 Hz x 1 uH
= 0.002 ohms (to 1 significant digit)
= 1.885E-003 ohms

TP can work the above equation themselves, as well using what they know.

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#### crutschow

Joined Mar 14, 2008
27,902
Also need the inductor current as well as its inductance.

#### BobTPH

Joined Jun 5, 2013
3,785
Without anything else known, just going by frequency, I chose an arbitrary inductance value. TP didn't say DC .v. AC, so I'm assuming AC.

XL = 2piFL
= 2 x 3.141592653 x 300 Hz x 1 uH
= 0.002 ohms (to 1 significant digit)
= 1.885E-003 ohms

TP can work the above equation themselves, as well using what they know.
Are you serious? 1uH? That would not make much of an electromagnet.

For example. 11 turns of wire 1/2 inch in diameter and 1/2 inch in length, air core, is 1uH.

Depending on how much force these magnets are required to produce, 1H is more like it.

Bob

#### BobaMosfet

Joined Jul 1, 2009
1,879
Are you serious? 1uH? That would not make much of an electromagnet.

For example. 11 turns of wire 1/2 inch in diameter and 1/2 inch in length, air core, is 1uH.

Depending on how much force these magnets are required to produce, 1H is more like it.

Bob
I wasn't suggesting using 1uH, I simply chose a value for sake of demonstrating the formula. The basic thing everyone is missing is that you cannot oscillate through an inductor without it reacting. It doesn't matter how little or much voltage or current you use, it's going to react, and I'm not sure the OP gets this. The formula I provided demonstrates this amply.

The inductor is either building a field, or returning energy into the circuit, anything else is a dead short or unpowered, even if for a very small period of time.

#### atferrari

Joined Jan 6, 2004
4,442
My varied / limited experience in (frustrating) partnerships of various kinds, seem to confirm something that a former friend of mine (owner of a well known and successful company dedicated to generation) once told me, years ago: do not associate people that you could simply hire for a certain job. Associate someone only if your are sure he could create/attract more customers.

Shocking as it sounded to me at the first moment, I tend to think he was right. Had I to start any venture I would go that way, no doubt.

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#### jwsigler

Joined Feb 2, 2018
11
Since some people are looking at the technical aspect, I can give you some initial thoughts on the magnets. One of my first estimates was a 500 turn coil of 32 awg wire which would be driven with a current of 2.0 amp. Ca anyone tell me how quickly a fully charged coil could be reversed?

#### Alec_t

Joined Sep 17, 2013
12,248
What will the magnet core be?

#### jwsigler

Joined Feb 2, 2018
11
There is no plan to have a magnetic core. The magnet wire will be wound on a plastic spindle. The thought was that if we use any form of metallic core, the would hinder the time required to reverse the magnetic field polarity.

#### crutschow

Joined Mar 14, 2008
27,902
There is no plan to have a magnetic core.
An air core electromagnet with 500 turns @ 2A will have a relatively small magnetic field.
Is that acceptable for your requirements?

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#### BobTPH

Joined Jun 5, 2013
3,785
If it is wound on a 1 in diameter form and is 1 inch long that is 4mH.
It would take 130 feet of wire. At 32ga that is 21.3 Ohms.

So you would need a minimum of 42.6V to make the current 2A.

dI / dt = V / L
dI / dt = 42.6 / 0.004 = 10,650 A / second

To reverse polarity is a change of 4A so it would take:

4 / 10650 = 0.00037 seconds or 370 uSeconds.

Bob

#### BobTPH

Joined Jun 5, 2013
3,785
Or, another way to look at it. What would it take to reverse it in 1 uSecond?

370 * 42.6V = 15,762V.

Bob

#### Danko

Joined Nov 22, 2017
1,143
Using coil with silver moving part may solve problem because of lowering inductance and high moving velocity.
https://lib.ugent.be/fulltxt/RUG01/001/418/247/RUG01-001418247_2010_0001_AC.pdf
"The patented High Velocity Electromagnetic technology uses speed rather than pressure to get the job done."
http://www.winset.net/press.htm
It may seems like this:

EDIT: Diagram below show us processes in coil 10uH, 0.1Ohm, when connected in series with diode to capacitor 20uF, charged to 300V. Red line - voltage, green line - current.

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