Line array directional sound

Thread Starter

Tryui

Joined Sep 20, 2021
202
What You want is not possible in a "portable" format.

The first thing to do is a complete room treatment,
lots of heavy, thick, sound absorbing materials everywhere,
especially in all 8 corners of the room.
This, while being VERY important, is certainly not going to be portable.

"Less than 1-Meter" tall is less than half the size necessary,
floor to ceiling height will be necessary if the listener is more
than 2-Meters away from the speakers.

Is this for a commercial / promotional display ?
You still haven't explained the basic problem you are trying to solve.
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yes the room filled it with panels, moreover I can bring the speakers even 60 cm from the listener so on they reduce the size, by laptop I mean less than a meter so even 90 cm in size are fine for me ok. I need it for an attraction for some unfortunate kids
 

Thread Starter

Tryui

Joined Sep 20, 2021
202
The alternative to a curved enclosure is an array of phase shifters, and that gets very complex very quickly.
Also, just because you want something does not mean that it is possible, especially for a reasonable cost. The truth is that not everything that can be imagined can be obtained. Except in the Kingdom of Utopia. Which we can not enter, nor even observe.
yes obviously everything is not possible in fact from the beginning I had proposed the line arrays that are able to direct the sound well, perhaps they are similar to the out of phase speakers you say, however I repeat I do not care that it is perfectly directional like Holosonics ultrasounds, I am satisfied, so the options are either the line arrays or the lowqcab cabinet
 

djsfantasi

Joined Apr 11, 2010
9,237
jokes? holosonics cost $ 1000
Not joking. Given your incomplete description of your application, many suggestions have been made. I was responding to the need to build a custom room for this to work without ultrasonics. Have you priced contractors or the price of wood (never mind materials on the walls) for a DIY effort?
 

Thread Starter

Tryui

Joined Sep 20, 2021
202
Phased arrays work for audio as well as radio. Here’s a project with a very complete write up that might help.

https://people.ece.cornell.edu/land...ts/s2012/tcj26_ecs227/tcj26_ecs227/index.html
wow @Ya'akov your link is really complete, so if I'm not mistaken phased arrays are those speakers operating through the phase shift? ok but you know that I am not a genius about electronics, surely I will do it by having it read by an engineer in my city so that I can set up the circuit. so besides building this, i want to build the @LowQCab cabinet
 

Thread Starter

Tryui

Joined Sep 20, 2021
202
Not joking. Given your incomplete description of your application, many suggestions have been made. I was responding to the need to build a custom room for this to work without ultrasonics. Have you priced contractors or the price of wood (never mind materials on the walls) for a DIY effort?
yes yes in fact it is the project with the cabinet that I am following from @LowQCab , his project is very promising and then I will try to have an engineer build the phased arrays of @Ya'akov
 

LowQCab

Joined Nov 6, 2012
5,101
"" so the options are either the line arrays or the lowqcab cabinet ""

Straight Line-Arrays are best suited to projecting Sound over a long-distance with reduced losses.
They are NOT well suited to "near-field" usage, with, or without, Phase-Shifting.
With close-distances, Straight-Line-Arrays are a smeary-mess,
and therefore have absolutely terrible Fidelity up close.

Curved-Line-Arrays tend to focus the Sound at a single-fixed-point of convergence.
When the Listener's Ears are close to that point of convergence, they generally produce excellent Fidelity.

Curved-Line-Arrays do not require any type of "Phase-Shifting",
only some pre-planning in regards to the number of Drivers vs the possible series / parallel
Driver-Wiring-Schemes required to achieve a workable Load-Impedance for the Amplifier(s).

In any case, more Drivers is better, but only when they are all equidistant from the Listener's Ears.
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Ya’akov

Joined Jan 27, 2019
10,235
I forgot about the possibility of parametric speakers using ultrasonics. I also think it is possible to combine a line array and para metric speaker techniques to create an electronically steerable array since an ordinary parametric speaker has a fixed direction. The video below is just one of many resources for home builds.

@djsfantasi is this something like what you were looking for?
 

Thread Starter

Tryui

Joined Sep 20, 2021
202
"" so the options are either the line arrays or the lowqcab cabinet ""

Straight Line-Arrays are best suited to projecting Sound over a long-distance with reduced losses.
They are NOT well suited to "near-field" usage, with, or without, Phase-Shifting.
With close-distances, Straight-Line-Arrays are a smeary-mess,
and therefore have absolutely terrible Fidelity up close.

Curved-Line-Arrays tend to focus the Sound at a single-fixed-point of convergence.
When the Listener's Ears are close to that point of convergence, they generally produce excellent Fidelity.

Curved-Line-Arrays do not require any type of "Phase-Shifting",
only some pre-planning in regards to the number of Drivers vs the possible series / parallel
Driver-Wiring-Schemes required to achieve a workable Load-Impedance for the Amplifier(s).

In any case, more Drivers is better, but only when they are all equidistant from the Listener's Ears.
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.
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yes yes @LowQCab I understand and you are absolutely right, I decided to build your cabinet, so maybe if you could give me all the information or a tutorial, for the wooden construction I have a friend who can help me and I believe that for the drivers it takes a suitable mixer, so he decided I choose your cabinet give me all the construction instructions, with a size as small as possible, I will get as close as possible to the speakers, the size I would like it to be no more than 1 meter
 

Thread Starter

Tryui

Joined Sep 20, 2021
202
I forgot about the possibility of parametric speakers using ultrasonics. I also think it is possible to combine a line array and para metric speaker techniques to create an electronically steerable array since an ordinary parametric speaker has a fixed direction. The video below is just one of many resources for home builds.

@djsfantasi is this something like what you were looking for?
yes yes @Ya'akov these speakers are the best for directing the sound, but I have difficulty with electronics, I would like to build them if I find a circuit already complete in gerber format
 

MisterBill2

Joined Jan 23, 2018
27,514
It is common for demanding requests to respond with "Good, Fast, or Cheap" "Pick two". But for this goal, I would respond with "Pick One". The requirement is very demanding, with sharp amplitude drop-off specifications, And the price requirement is towards "cheap"
 

LowQCab

Joined Nov 6, 2012
5,101
Here's the best I can do considering the impossible specifications.
They actually turned-out to have excellent performance for such small speakers.
The Cabinets "look" complicated, but they're really not,
study the Picture carefully, because some of the dimensions are critical for best performance.

Here's a shortcut to the selected Speakers ...............
https://www.parts-express.com/Dayton-Audio-PC83-4-3-Full-Range-Poly-Cone-Driver-295-154

The Power-Rating is actually around ~120-Watts, but I didn't want to have to change the Picture ..............
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Curved PA Speakers FLAT .png
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Frequency Response .PNG
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Speaker Wiring FLAT .png
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Attachments

Thread Starter

Tryui

Joined Sep 20, 2021
202
Here's the best I can do considering the impossible specifications.
They actually turned-out to have excellent performance for such small speakers.
The Cabinets "look" complicated, but they're really not,
study the Picture carefully, because some of the dimensions are critical for best performance.

Here's a shortcut to the selected Speakers ...............
https://www.parts-express.com/Dayton-Audio-PC83-4-3-Full-Range-Poly-Cone-Driver-295-154

The Power-Rating is actually around ~120-Watts, but I didn't want to have to change the Picture ..............
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View attachment 271694
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View attachment 271695
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View attachment 271696
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wow @LowQCab your answer is very complete and exhaustive, no person in any forum had helped me so much, thank you very much for your help and your availability, for any problems I can contact you in private?
 

Thread Starter

Tryui

Joined Sep 20, 2021
202
It is common for demanding requests to respond with "Good, Fast, or Cheap" "Pick two". But for this goal, I would respond with "Pick One". The requirement is very demanding, with sharp amplitude drop-off specifications, And the price requirement is towards "cheap"
@MisterBill2 yes yes I know, maybe I'm a bit abrupt and hasty, but I want to say that what I do for these guys, I do it with enthusiasm, and therefore sometimes I get a little impatient, but you are always very kind and helpful, thank you friends
 

LowQCab

Joined Nov 6, 2012
5,101
"" for any problems I can contact you in private? ""

It would be better to keep all exchanges in the same Thread,
that way other people may possibly learn something from the Q&A.

BTW, even though these Speakers are "Tuned" for 40hz, doesn't mean
that You should expect that type of performance in the real-world.
Speaker placement in the room will dictate the Low-Frequency performance.
The 40hz tuning will tend to provide more protection to the Speaker-Cones,
creating better control over "Cone-Excursion" at Bass-Frequencies,
and allowing higher Power-Handling capabilities with Music.

For High-Output with Music, a Sub-Woofer will be required,
and a Crossover-Network to cut the Frequencies below ~100hz.
But of course then, any directional control will be virtually non-existent.

On the other hand, I was astounded to see the calculated performance of these Speakers.
They will deliver top-notch performance for their limited size and cost.

They should be at least twice as tall to be really effective,
You could build 4 and stack them,
or keep them at "head-height" with a Folding-Speaker-Stand
and arrange 4 of them in a semi-circle, or both.
Any directional control requires "SIZE", there's no getting around it.
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Thread Starter

Tryui

Joined Sep 20, 2021
202
"" for any problems I can contact you in private? ""

It would be better to keep all exchanges in the same Thread,
that way other people may possibly learn something from the Q&A.

BTW, even though these Speakers are "Tuned" for 40hz, doesn't mean
that You should expect that type of performance in the real-world.
Speaker placement in the room will dictate the Low-Frequency performance.
The 40hz tuning will tend to provide more protection to the Speaker-Cones,
creating better control over "Cone-Excursion" at Bass-Frequencies,
and allowing higher Power-Handling capabilities with Music.

For High-Output with Music, a Sub-Woofer will be required,
and a Crossover-Network to cut the Frequencies below ~100hz.
But of course then, any directional control will be virtually non-existent.

On the other hand, I was astounded to see the calculated performance of these Speakers.
They will deliver top-notch performance for their limited size and cost.

They should be at least twice as tall to be really effective,
You could build 4 and stack them,
or keep them at "head-height" with a Folding-Speaker-Stand
and arrange 4 of them in a semi-circle, or both.
Any directional control requires "SIZE", there's no getting around it.
.
.
.
@LowQCab OK thank you very much your advice is always very precious, I will begin to have the carpenter and an electronic expert view the deed to help me, see you soon, I will communicate the steps in the thread
 
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