Kook needs help with motor size?

shortbus

Joined Sep 30, 2009
10,045
This may not be helpful but any thing I've ever been associated with in metal working would never be done like this. By that I mean a feed roll to a 'guillotine', then direct to forming. There would be 'blanks' cut to size in a shear, then the blanks would go to the form process. Then to whatever the next process would be.

He mentioned "rain water outlets" in one post. Is this what the final 'product' is? With knowing what is being made, maybe a picture or link to a similar product, better ideas can be made. Instead of guessing if what is being talked about is even feasible.
 

Thread Starter

Mark Rountree

Joined May 9, 2017
51
This may not be helpful but any thing I've ever been associated with in metal working would never be done like this. By that I mean a feed roll to a 'guillotine', then direct to forming. There would be 'blanks' cut to size in a shear, then the blanks would go to the form process. Then to whatever the next process would be.

He mentioned "rain water outlets" in one post. Is this what the final 'product' is? With knowing what is being made, maybe a picture or link to a similar product, better ideas can be made. Instead of guessing if what is being talked about is even feasible.
We are constantly putting flat sheet into machines with rollers, lockseaming,guilotine and measurement all done in one seamless opperation to make products. All mechanical electronics methods, hydrolic was mentioned to me but its too messy, air is ok but the size compressors needed just wont stack up. so here we have landed. I have the mechanical side sorted, now its on to automation. Any ideas welcome
 

Thread Starter

Mark Rountree

Joined May 9, 2017
51
PLC = Programmable Logic Controller.
It's basically an industrial thing similar to Arduino.
It is much more expensive but more reliable and "easier" to program.
If you are going to use a PLC make sure it has at least 5 pulse outputs for driving 5 stepper drives. Not every PLC has this. I am most familiar with Omron PLCs; I can recommend one with pulse outputs if you like.
But I think an Arduino is still possible; not sure why you decided to go with PLC instead.
Either one, Arduino or PLC, is going to require stepper drivers. PLC cannot drive steppers directly
I have an arduino that i bought for learning then promptly got stuck. Im sure i can do it eventually and if you think i can use arduino then ill stick with it.
Basically, i have a wall outlet [240v new zealand] and an arduino uno, and 5 steppers[ which i will purchase on yours and Maxes recommendations] I suppose i need to know how to fill in these gaps. So the things i have decided on are,Arduino, steppers, 12 volt maybe? lol. so into the wall i would plug a?
 

Thread Starter

Mark Rountree

Joined May 9, 2017
51
There is also a smaller version for a project that does not require a full blown PLC and that is a Smart Relay, there are many Manuf., some are relabeled but all have similar approach.
One of the main strengths of PLC/S.R. is that the screen can display a relay schematic style display that can also indicate the present status of I/O and outputs etc.
Max.
do i need one of these max?
http://www.omc-stepperonline.com/sw...or-cnc-router-kits-115v230v-s40024-p-240.html

one of these
http://www.omc-stepperonline.com/ge...ue-nema-23-stepper-23hs302804spg47-p-282.html

4 of these
http://www.omc-stepperonline.com/nema-23-cnc-stepper-motor-283nm400-ozin-40a-23hs334008s-p-70.html

5 of these
http://www.omc-stepperonline.com/bi...-40vdc-input-16-subdivision-st6600-p-246.html

and an arduino uno
or should i be using the arduino drivers instead?
 
Last edited:

strantor

Joined Oct 3, 2010
6,782
Looks like a good shopping list to me. When you say "arduino stepper drivers" I assume you're talking about those little PCB units from the likes of Pololu? I haven't seen any of those rated for steppers this large. I think you're better off with the drivers you just linked to.
 

MaxHeadRoom

Joined Jul 18, 2013
28,619
I am a little averse to SMPS supplies for servo/stepper, I prefer the linear supply being a little more rugged, and can easily be fixed in the rare time it may fail.
They are easy to put together from parts.
Max.
 

shortbus

Joined Sep 30, 2009
10,045
I am a little averse to SMPS supplies for servo/stepper, I prefer the linear supply being a little more rugged, and can easily be fixed in the rare time it may fail.
They are easy to put together from parts.
Max.
And unless things have changed, most/all? stepper drivers suggest not using SMPS for them.
 

MaxHeadRoom

Joined Jul 18, 2013
28,619
SMPS = Switch Mode Power Supply, an electronic generated/regulated as opposed to the 3 device linear, power transformer, bridge rectifier and capacitor.
Max.
 

MaxHeadRoom

Joined Jul 18, 2013
28,619
It should work, some use them, but personally as I said I much prefer the linear version, they tend to be sturdier, a bit like 'pay me now or pay me later'.
Max.
 

MaxHeadRoom

Joined Jul 18, 2013
28,619
That is a good motor, but without additions it cannot position exactly.
One advantage to using a motor such as this, either brushed or BLDC is to to use in conjunction with a high ratio gear box, a worm and pinion type do not back feed and stop fairly quickly for repetitive positioning purposes.
Planetary are high ratio capable, but expensive.
Max.
 

Thread Starter

Mark Rountree

Joined May 9, 2017
51
That is a good motor, but without additions it cannot position exactly.
One advantage to using a motor such as this, either brushed or BLDC is to to use in conjunction with a high ratio gear box, a worm and pinion type do not back feed and stop fairly quickly for repetitive positioning purposes.
Planetary are high ratio capable, but expensive.
Max.
So stick with the stepper motors?

Okay, so I'm going to write out the sequence here. I'm getting very lost and confused.

Motor 1- this has a rubber wheel attached and feeds the sheetmetal into the guilotine 55mm at a time. The sheetmetal comes in 200 mtr coils 273mm wide( this coil of steel sits on a decoiler)
Motor 2- this is attached to a lead screw and pulls the guilotine down.( I imagine a switch being touched by the front edge of the 273mm sheetmetal) to activate the guilotine.
Motor 3- this has a lead screw on it and pushes the 55mmx273mm blank sheet into the rollers
Motor 4- ( this operation is the 30nm one) this rotates the rollers which are all connected via gears. It rolls forward about 300 degrees then backwards about 30 degrees then forward 90 degrees,stops,rotates backwards 360 degrees.
Motor 5- this is on a lead screw (maybe 2 motors each with a lead screw) this pushes some rods that push the completed product off the rollers sideways.

I am then left with a 76mm diameter cylinder lockseamed and ready to use as a rainwater outlet

The drawing I provided here are excluding the guilotine and feed motors.

Thanks for all the patience guys.
 

MaxHeadRoom

Joined Jul 18, 2013
28,619
With controlling steppers you can eliminate some in-posn. switches to some degree as the controller that is issuing step/dir pulses knows when it has processed the last step and assumes the actuator is in position, at that point it carries out the next step etc. etc.
Of course the down side to this over a PID loop positioner is that if the stepper does not make it for any reason, the controller does not know.
Max.
 

Thread Starter

Mark Rountree

Joined May 9, 2017
51
With controlling steppers you can eliminate some in-posn. switches to some degree as the controller that is issuing step/dir pulses knows when it has processed the last step and assumes the actuator is in position, at that point it carries out the next step etc. etc.
Of course the down side to this over a PID loop positioner is that if the stepper does not make it for any reason, the controller does not know.
Max.
So I need a pid loop positioner?
 

MaxHeadRoom

Joined Jul 18, 2013
28,619
It depends on the mechanism and the accuracy it can provide, a DC or BLDC motor without PID is open loop, so if using say a Limit Swith to define or register position, it depends on the capability of the motor-mechanism to stop within acceptable limits.
This is a crude form of feedback.
On the retro fit of the Italian rolling machine I showed earlier I used a motion card with encoder for PID positioning, but this was a variable fairly high speed unit, and required precise repeatably.
The L.S. method would give you feedback of a sort at least.
Max.
 

Thread Starter

Mark Rountree

Joined May 9, 2017
51
It depends on the mechanism and the accuracy it can provide, a DC or BLDC motor without PID is open loop, so if using say a Limit Swith to define or register position, it depends on the capability of the motor-mechanism to stop within acceptable limits.
This is a crude form of feedback.
On the retro fit of the Italian rolling machine I showed earlier I used a motion card with encoder for PID positioning, but this was a variable fairly high speed unit, and required precise repeatably.
The L.S. method would give you feedback of a sort at least.
Max.
Hmmm.lots to try think about. I was thinking that each motor would do its job.return to home position then the next one do its job.
After some more thought I can see that as motor 2 is returning home that motor 3 will will be starting it's work. As motor 3 is returning home motor 4 will be starting it's work. Motor 4 will need to return home before motors 5 and maybe 6 do their work. Once motors 5 and 6 have done their work then a half second delay before motor 1 feeds in another 55 mm. Although this could probably be bought forward a step so it speeds things up and motor 1 engages feed when motor 3 returns home.
This is all great but I still don't know what hardware to purchase.lol
 
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