I just learned something, I had no idea that Muslims believe in a pre-existence. I'll bet you have interesting conversations with Mormons.

I live in Utah all my Family Members are Mormon but me, I got ex-communicated when I couldn't answer the question that Joseph Smith is a true profit of God.

kv

I had to google Mormons. I am sorry. I did it misread it. First I saw morons . I had to adjust my glasses
Aside from that, I dunno about Joseph Smith. But if he had an Arabic name, I can find out.

As for pre-existence, it was not like living for a time. It was for a very brief moment that every one that will be born till the end of times was brought out of Adam's back to show him his progeny.It was then we were asked what we wanted to be.

People wanted everything to be perfect.
It will never be.
This world has no value. It's value is lesser than the wings of a mosquito.

There is a very good movie, Wings of Desire. It is about an angel who wants to be human...

I just don't get it.
Why people believe that Angels want to be humans
They do not have feelings like humans or will power of any kind
They obey orders from only the creator.
They don't have an ounce of power not to obey. They don't even think about disobeying. They do have curiosity though and they do think about the things the creator does.

 

I had to google Mormons. I am sorry. I did it misread it. First I saw morons . I had to adjust my glasses
Aside from that, I dunno about Joseph Smith. But if he had an Arabic name, I can find out.

As for pre-existence, it was not like living for a time. It was for a very brief moment that every one that will be born till the end of times was brought out of Adam's back to show him his progeny.It was then we were asked what we wanted to be.

People wanted everything to be perfect.
It will never be.
This world has no value. It's value is lesser than the wings of a mosquito.


I just don't get it.
Why people believe that Angels want to be humans
They do not have feelings like humans or will power of any kind
They obey orders from only the creator.
They don't have an ounce of power not to obey. They don't even think about disobeying. They do have curiosity though and they do think about the things the creator does.

I grew up in the religion and have read their books, but they believed they were spirit children prior in the pre-existence with God the Father. They also believe Joseph Smith saying that God lives on a Planet called Kolob which might not even be in this Universe. They also believe in a saying that goes like this " As God is, Man will become and as Man is, God once was"

kv

Edit: They also believe they chose the destiny of their lives and bodies.

 

I had to google Mormons. I am sorry. I did it misread it. First I saw morons . I had to adjust my glasses
Aside from that, I dunno about Joseph Smith. But if he had an Arabic name, I can find out.

As for pre-existence, it was not like living for a time. It was for a very brief moment that every one that will be born till the end of times was brought out of Adam's back to show him his progeny.It was then we were asked what we wanted to be.

People wanted everything to be perfect.
It will never be.
This world has no value. It's value is lesser than the wings of a mosquito.


I just don't get it.
Why people believe that Angels want to be humans
They do not have feelings like humans or will power of any kind
They obey orders from only the creator.
They don't have an ounce of power not to obey. They don't even think about disobeying. They do have curiosity though and they do think about the things the creator does.

Well, there was a famous angel who questioned the creator... but if you want, watch the movie, you may or may not like it. It was shot in Berlin in 1987, interesting time...

 

How is asking for proof of a claim "looking for a fight" or an attempt to "win" anything?

That's just how it works it some people. More so with those who know deep down inside they are likely wrong.

Of course you have a right to your thoughts, I am just interested to know how you arrived at those conclusions. I am not saying that you are wrong, you may have a compelling argument for believing what you do, I don't know. Isn't a forum a place to discuss ideas?

Only until someone feel cornered in their own logic or lack thereof. Then they get a free pass to snowflake land where they can define whatever they want however they want and everyone else has to accept it even if it's clear it has no value or foundations to stand on.

How tedious and pointless would it be if we were all to make extraordinary assertions about the supernatural and then take offence and shut down the conversation when someone asks how we arrived at our conclusions? Come to think of it, isn't that how most established religions behave?

Very tedious and it could go on for months without reaching any conclusions beyond that some have more will to believe in that which can be proven wrong than what they themselves can ever prove is right in their belief to which then somehow makes you the bad guy for wanting to learn and try to understand them and their views.

My proof is my book.
I can quot from it but I think you won't like it. In fact I can quot things that are true and came to be true recently. Again you might not like it. So it is best to respect my belief. I respect yours.
But if you ask me with respect and sincerity, I will explain. But it might take some time. And this thread is not for that.

But those statements in and of themselves create a catch 22 issue where without your proof the person claiming your views are wrong has equal validity and cause to what you claim.
Even more so if they actually put forth any effort whatsoever to give a rational plausible credence and explanations to their views over yours. Two things that are most often a heavy part of the very downfall of most every religious and political belief system and or following that either can not or simply refuses to explain itself to anyone who has a question regarding what makes it valid. Even more so if any number of the claimed beliefs are easily seen to run contradictory to each other.

Religions, like politics and most cultures, only survive if they can bring in and maintain a following to which if their own systems of operation run heavily counter productive to those necessities for their own existence they eventually dry up and die as has been documented thousands of times over the course of humanity by the downfalls of a multitude of religious, political and cultural followings.

 

How is asking for proof of a claim "looking for a fight" or an attempt to "win" anything?

Of course you have a right to your thoughts, I am just interested to know how you arrived at those conclusions. I am not saying that you are wrong, you may have a compelling argument for believing what you do, I don't know. Isn't a forum a place to discuss ideas?

I've been interested in this subject since I was a teenager, I've read and reread many books on the subject and tied ideas together from many of them, to form my thoughts. No one book or person has all of the ideas, they are all biased in one way or another. By taking what makes sense from many sources I have came to my conclusions. I have no source or proof I'm correct. But I have ideas I think are true, at least to me. So no I can't give you any proof, in these things I don't think anyone person has it right, but has to follow his/her own path to try and be the best person they can. And hope for the best. Being true to your self is the first step, and having an open mind. This is the first place/thread I've ever seen that is allowing it to be talked about, and not breaking down in flames. Sorry if I took what you were saying wrong.

 

I've been interested in this subject since I was a teenager, I've read and reread many books on the subject and tied ideas together from many of them, to form my thoughts. No one book or person has all of the ideas, they are all biased in one way or another. By taking what makes sense from many sources I have came to my conclusions. I have no source or proof I'm correct. But I have ideas I think are true, at least to me. So no I can't give you any proof, in these things I don't think anyone person has it right, but has to follow his/her own path to try and be the best person they can. And hope for the best. Being true to your self is the first step, and having an open mind. This is the first place/thread I've ever seen that is allowing it to be talked about, and not breaking down in flames. Sorry if I took what you were saying wrong.

I spoke to someone who said this and I find it accurate to them and how they think.

"If I tell you I just seen a Red Car in the Parking lot would you believe me, or based on my Character you have faith I seen a Red Car in the Parking lot."

The difference is if I get up and walk to the Parking lot myself and see the Red Car then and only then I can believe what you said to be true. e.g. Joseph Smiths Story.

kv

 

@R!f@@ Can you explain why Muslims walk in a circle around a square structure with a Meteorite imbedded in it?

kv

 

I spoke to someone who said this and I find it accurate to them and how they think.

"If I tell you I just seen a Red Car in the Parking lot would you believe me, or based on my Character you have faith I seen a Red Car in the Parking lot."

The difference is if I get up and walk to the Parking lot myself and see the Red Car then and only then I can believe what you said to be true. e.g. Joseph Smiths Story.

#1 pitfall of most non scientifically definable and confirmable views in life regardless of their source.

Credibility by confirmability and display of character.

If someone has established a long running history of having what they claimed confirmed to be likely true, by proxy most of what they say will be taken to be likely true if it holds even the slightest degree of rational plausibility to be even remotely possible.
Same with those who have proven to have a long running history of being more often than not disproven in everything they claim. By common experience of them having continually proven little of anything they claimed to be what they said it was by equivalent proxy most everything they say that sounds even a bit unlikely to be true to be taken to be incorrect by either being a slip up of ignorance, honest stupidity, or an outright lie or attempt to deceive in some way.

Simple premises to understand yet for some incredibly difficult to implement no matter how harshly the ramifications of their actions play out against them time after time.

 

@R!f@@ Can you explain why Muslims walk in a circle around a square structure with a Meteorite imbedded in it?

kv

Because walking in a square around a circle with a pumpkin in it would make them seem less credible and more crazy as a religion?

 

Because walking in a square around a circle with a pumpkin in it would make them seem less credible and more crazy as a religion?

Don't get too specific. Lots of religions have strange ceremonies. Catholics eat a cracker to feel closer to JC. Mormons purchase spots in Mormon Heaven for their relatives. Episcopalians wave a smoke pot around their church, for what reason, I don't know. Maybe it's like the Wiccans throw salt around to purify the place.

 

I'm glad I wasn't taking a drink of my beer when I read these. I would have taken a beer shower.

kv

 

Because walking in a square around a circle with a pumpkin in it would make them seem less credible and more crazy as a religion?

I understand it has some radio activity, I'm not sure how much.

kv

 

I have not every read every post in this thread, not more than a few in fact. So apologies if this has already been discussed, but how does the "intelligent design" crowd explain the glaring flaws in our own human anatomy? Think of lower back pain as one example. This causes an enormous loss of productivity and quality-of-life for millions of people. The causes of lower back pain can be traced directly to our vestigial four-legged anatomy having not yet caught up with our stand-erect adaptation. An "intelligent" designer would be a very poor one if they designed the human spine for our current form.

I've read that our eyes are also a poor 'design' for air - they're really better as an underwater design. We left the oceans a long time ago but once you've evolved something as useful and complex as an eye, it's hard to go back and make fundamental changes. Instead a series of smaller changes allow us get by after modifying the complex structure for our new environment. That's not how an intelligent designer would do it.

 

I have not every read every post in this thread, not more than a few in fact. So apologies if this has already been discussed, but how does the "intelligent design" crowd explain the glaring flaws in our own human anatomy? Think of lower back pain as one example. This causes an enormous loss of productivity and quality-of-life for millions of people. The causes of lower back pain can be traced directly to our vestigial four-legged anatomy having not yet caught up with our stand-erect adaptation. An "intelligent" designer would be a very poor one if they designed the human spine for our current form.

I've read that our eyes are also a poor 'design' for air - they're really better as an underwater design. We left the oceans a long time ago but once you've evolved something as useful and complex as an eye, it's hard to go back and make fundamental changes. Instead a series of smaller changes allow us get by after modifying the complex structure for our new environment. That's not how an intelligent designer would do it.

Dogs have the same problem, it's why Indians will allow a senior member of the tribe to dis-imbark without provisions to succumb the elements. Be it bear, cougar, or other wild animals.

Edit: Or otherwise to diminish without nutrients, returning that which from whence it was from.

 

I have not every read every post in this thread, not more than a few in fact. So apologies if this has already been discussed, but how does the "intelligent design" crowd explain the glaring flaws in our own human anatomy? Think of lower back pain as one example. This causes an enormous loss of productivity and quality-of-life for millions of people. The causes of lower back pain can be traced directly to our vestigial four-legged anatomy having not yet caught up with our stand-erect adaptation. An "intelligent" designer would be a very poor one if they designed the human spine for our current form.

I've read that our eyes are also a poor 'design' for air - they're really better as an underwater design. We left the oceans a long time ago but once you've evolved something as useful and complex as an eye, it's hard to go back and make fundamental changes. Instead a series of smaller changes allow us get by after modifying the complex structure for our new environment. That's not how an intelligent designer would do it.

Intelligent design IMO does not necessarily have to mean perfect design by a perfect being or spirit. Modern automobiles are intelligently designed yet still have recalls, transmission failures, etc.

A few times in this thread the idea has been tossed around about aliens. If the idea that an infinite and all powerful spirit created us as a little experiment for his/her/its own amusement is not too far-fetched for some to believe, then maybe the idea that aliens deposited us and possibly everything else on this planet as an experiment for science, would be as or more believable. Maybe we are the aliens? Or a failed genetic experiment they didn't see the value in following up on?

That's not my belief but it is an idea that I toss around sometimes. All things being equal (total absence of any shred of proof) I find it slightly more plausible than creationist hypothesis.

 

Intelligent design IMO does not necessarily have to mean perfect design by a perfect being or spirit. Modern automobiles are intelligently designed yet still have recalls, transmission failures, etc.

A few times in this thread the idea has been tossed around about aliens. If the idea that an infinite and all powerful spirit created us as a little experiment for his/her/its own amusement is not too far-fetched for some to believe, then maybe the idea that aliens deposited us and possibly everything else on this planet as an experiment for science, would be as or more believable. Maybe we are the aliens? Or a failed genetic experiment they didn't see the value in following up on?

That's not my belief but it is an idea that I toss around sometimes. All things being equal (total absence of any shred of proof) I find it slightly more plausible than creationist hypothesis.

It's funny how I'm seeing people criticize the imperfectness of living beings to try to justify their doubts about a Greatest of Beings. Why does it have to be perfect, at all? Last time I checked, nature was in constant improvement. The way I see it, the universe is a work in progress. And we, as sentient creatures, are responsible for our own improvement or decay.

And again, I have yet to see someone here being impressed at the unbelievable precision that the Gravitational constant, and the strong and weak atomic forces show. Last I checked, one misplaced number up to 270 decimals away from the decimal point, and the entire universe would've not been able to exist... It's coincidence, some people tell me... yeah, right... it's much easier for me to believe in an underlying purpose in existence itself than in such coincidence.

For the record, I do not believe in "intelligent design" the way it's traditionally interpreted. I believe in the spontanous emergence of life under ideal conditions, and in evolution too. The difference is that I believe in a God that conceived this universe with all its properties before the big bang (if there is such thing as before Time itself) and then set things rolling to where we are now.

 

It's funny how I'm seeing people criticize the imperfectness of living beings to try to justify their doubts about a Greatest of Beings. Why does it have to be perfect, at all? Last time I checked, nature was in constant improvement. The way I see it, the universe is a work in progress. And we, as sentient creatures, are responsible for our own improvement or decay.

And again, I have yet to see someone here being impressed at the unbelievable precision that the Gravitational constant, and the strong and weak atomic forces show. Last I checked, one misplaced number up to 270 decimals away from the decimal point, and the entire universe would've not been able to exist... It's coincidence, some people tell me... yeah, right... it's much easier for me to believe in an underlying purpose in existence itself than in such coincidence.

For the record, I do not believe in "intelligent design" the way it's traditionally interpreted. I believe in the spontanous emergence of life under ideal conditions, and in evolution too. The difference is that I believe in a God that conceived this universe with all its properties before the big bang (if there is such thing as before Time itself) and then set things rolling to where we are now.

Very interesting, and not so much as whisper of condescension.

Well put.

kv

Edit: Thank you for being you in my old age.

 

Edit: Thank you for being you in my old age.

likewise

 

The idea of earth being "seeded" by aliens has also given me some pause for thought,although again I can offer no proof.Something that has interested me also is the theory of humans originating "out of Africa" and populating the earth.
I find it rather strange that, if this was the case, that it seemed to be humans in what we now call Europe we made all the so-called advances in science,medicine and other things we now take for granted(not forgetting the advances made in the middle east or far east).
Why, if humans came out of Africa, did they not develop much further along the road to development but seemed to stagnate in tribal cultures. See also the Australian aborigines,supposed to have lived there for about 40000 years but made real advances in tech, etc.
Then we have the issue of the Nethandrals,(sp), they apparently had a reasonably progressive culture but were overtaken by homo sapiens.
Is there a possibility that there was external interference favouring the rise of homo sapiens in europe. I guess we will never know until those "aliens" come back to check on progress. Makes for some interesting SCI-FI tales.

 

@R!f@@ Can you explain why Muslims walk in a circle around a square structure with a Meteorite imbedded in it?

kv

I can, reaaaally long story.

Some ask why the sickness if we were an intelligent design.
Well, all I can say is again, "The Test."

In sickness and in good health, we have to thank the designer. That is the purpose.
We are tested in a lot of ways. Some with money. Some with health. Some with sickness. Some without homes.

For things like that we do have to get sick.
How we react to the one who made us, do we question him or do we thank him for what he provided us, what ever that may be.