In Electronics, only the battery has not been improved on; why? Are we still in the dark ages?

 

They're making improvements all of the time.

Have you seen or heard about AGM batteries?

 

NiMH batteries are much better than NiCd ones, for example.

 

In Electronics, only the battery has not been improved on; why? Are we still in the dark ages?

The LiFePO4 battery wasn't around 10 years ago. Even 5 years ago, you couldn't buy them.

John

 

All of these batteries us electro-chemical means, and is basically the same technology as our grandfathers.

 

All the way back to 1800 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltaic_pile

We still use the same AC electricity discovered and commercialized back in the 1800's, too.

The internal electrochemical reaction is a significant part of the definition of a "battery".

 

All of these batteries us electro-chemical means, and is basically the same technology as our grandfathers.

How do you define "battery?" I thought a battery was defined as electrochemical. Remember too, there are "super" capacitors.

John

 

Thomas Edison's original lead acid cell design is still being put into new cars today, so you can see that it is a time tested design with only small improvements being made over time; maintenance free claims, starved electrolytes, etc. My benchmark for new battery designs is $1.00 /Amp-Hour of cost, and few new (high power) designs can meet this goal. Battery technology has stayed on the back burner for years because it did not have to change to meet new transportation designs...until now. Now that electric vehicles are being looked at seriously as viable transportation modes, new battery designs must be developed. Battery technology needs improved on all sides.
It will indeed be a long development road however.

Cheers, DPW [ Everything has limitations...and I hate limitations.]

 

Thomas Edison's original lead acid cell design is still being put into new cars today, so you can see that it is a time tested design...

Just goes to show, if you do it right the first time, you don't have to keep fixing it. Wish Microsoft would follow that philosophy with Windows.

John

 

if you do it right the first time, you don't have to keep fixing it. Wish Microsoft would follow that philosophy with Windows

Hear, hear.

 

As I understand it we are still using maxwell's equations, and the same old electrons that were around a billion years ago. That is old stuff.

 

How do you define "battery?" I thought a battery was defined as electrochemical. Remember too, there are "super" capacitors.

John

Electricity storage is how I believe a 'battery' is defined, electrochemical is the means of the storage.
Could someone explain to me the 'super' capacitor? I understand they are used for the starting of electric vehicles, quick release of a massive amount of power.

 

Electricity storage is how I believe a 'battery' is defined, electrochemical is the means of the storage.

How do you distinguish between a battery, a common capacitor, or even inductor in your definition? How about a fuel cell vs. a battery?

These discussions go nowhere, unless all parties use the same definitions. At this point, I think there is little value in reviewing those definitions.

The simple fact is, there have been enormous advances in electrochemical storage technology, fuel cells, and capacitors.

John

 

How do you distinguish between a battery, a common capacitor, or even inductor in your definition? How about a fuel cell vs. a battery?

John

I see your point.
Let's pretend for a moment. I'm in the future, going to purchase a 'battery'.
Walk into the retail establishment and approach the battery dept. As I look around I have choices between electrochemical, capacitor, inductor, and fuel cell type batteries.
If the definition of a battery is that it HAS to be electrochemical, then any new technology in future types of batteries can not refer to itself as a battery.

My point to this thread was to get input about battery technology and to discuss batteries in general. Also I am curious as to why in this modern day and age we are still using 200 year old technology( slightly improved on in the recent past few years).

 

Also I am curious as to why in this modern day and age we are still using 200 year old technology

Chemically, there are only so many combinations that can be made out of the electromotive series that have useful characteristics. We are still dealing with the same atomic elements (excluding those created in nuclear reactions) that were around 200 years ago.

The choices get smaller yet if you insist on the reactions producing electrical power being reversible, so the battery is no longer a one time use item. There is some word around that the old NiFe cell is getting some attention. T. A. Edison came up with that one, but it only attractive in cold conditions.

"Battery" make more sense as an electrochemical device. A general category, into which everything will git, is Energy Storage Device (ESD). It can hold fuel cells and ultracapacitors.

For a bit of perspective, MIT made an ultracapacitor booster for a battery-powered go Kart. The capacity was 220 Farads, very large in terms of capacitance. But, as someone in the article explained, it held about the same total energy as an AA battery (chemistry not described). 20 pounds of capacitor equalling an AA battery makes it an easy decision as to the power source for an Ipod.

 

The one thing that bothers me is that it seems the more energy density a battery has, the shorter the working lifespan. This would be a better hurdle to clear in my opinion. As compared to packing more and more into a smaller space.

But, this is true with everything high performance, really. Just look at drag cars, Yeah you can get 5000 HP but you have to rebuild the engine after less than 5 seconds of use, lol.

 

The one thing that bothers me is that it seems the more energy density a battery has, the shorter the working lifespan. This would be a better hurdle to clear in my opinion.

Agreed, and that is where the LiFePO4 (A123) battery fits in. I can't wait to buy them at the grocery store. Today, some people are buying the tools, just to get the batteries. Also, compare the eneloop to standard NiMH batteries. Nothing is perfect, but charge cycles for high energy density batteries are definitely on the upswing.

John

 

Found this
http://www.alternative-energy-news.info/new-battery-technology-charges-in-seconds/
Life changing is right.

 

If MIT scientists successfully complete this project for commercial use, we can charge electric car batteries in less than one hour. Till now recharging is one of the greatest hurdles for mass production of electric cars.

This is interesting to think about. That assumes much heavier conductors to handle the current, and a greatly enlarged power distribution network to handle the extra load.

Cities like Ft. Lauterdale had (and may still have) banks of turbogenerators to handle afternoon loads that come on when people go home after work and turn on the air conditioning. Electric cars require orders of magnitude more power.

Something like fuel cell cars would seem to be a more realistic development.

 

My point to this thread was to get input about battery technology and to discuss batteries in general. Also I am curious as to why in this modern day and age we are still using 200 year old technology( slightly improved on in the recent past few years).

If you don't consider advances in materials technology to qualify as new technology, it is difficult to give you a satisfactory answer.