My guess is "mellow" equals "distortion". But you can put 20 different audiophiles in front of an A/B switch and get 20 different answers -- and that's with only two choices.

You are thinking with the wrong hat. Put your used-car-salesman hat on:

Step 1: Call yourself an audio expert, audiophile, whatever -- insist that anyone who disagrees with you is an idiot;
Step 2: Put two tubes in a box -- call them matched
Step 3: Sell them as "Superior Matched Tubes" at $6000 a pair.

90% won't be able to tell the difference, and the remaining 10% will assume they must be wrong because, well, $6000.

Damn. I missed this message and it makes a lot of difference.

I've never seen it described as 'distortion' although I believe you are correct. It must be distortion. Nothing else fits.

Sorry. I burned my 'used car salesman' hat while I was in Honduras.

 

Damn. I missed this message and it makes a lot of difference.

I've never seen it described as 'distortion' although I believe you are correct. It must be distortion. Nothing else fits.

I am not an audiophile (AM talk radio sounds good to me!), but I've read that tube amps clip high amplitude signals gradually as opposed to solid-state which clips abruptly, thereby giving a more "mellow" sound at high volumes.

Personally, I've never understood why someone would not want to listen to something "as recorded" -- without clipping or distortion -- rather than modified in someway by the electronics.

In this regard, IMHO, solid-state digital sound reproduction is "technically" superior to all the analog stuff, especially if the signal levels are kept within the dynamic range of the output amp. In this case, the speakers should be the limiting factor as far as sound quality is concerned.

 

With the tubes fetching such big money, what's the betting some enterprising scamsters aren't already doing that? .

Oh, there are some scamsters trying to do it, but, like I said, one bad tube and you have no credibility. so they make one score and go back to the bench. Forever.

That's not the way I wan't to end my electronics career.

 

About the same as the odds that anyone would notice...

I hate to be this way, but they say they can tell. I sure can't.

They stack a million dollars worth of transistorized stuff up against a matched pair of 12AX7s and say they can tell the difference. Maybe audiophiles are more like dogs, or cats, than we are. Wider audio range. I have no idea.

Let me give you a different example. I was born partially color blind. I need to surf the web for circuit schematics, many times a day. Many web site designers don't care about people like me, so they do the site with dark blue text on a medium gray background. What do I see? Nothing except the dark gray background. It's really irritating some times.

 

I am not an audiophile (AM talk radio sounds good to me!), but I've read that tube amps clip high amplitude signals gradually as opposed to solid-state which clips abruptly, thereby giving a more "mellow" sound at high volumes.

Personally, I've never understood why someone would not want to listen to something "as recorded" -- without clipping or distortion -- rather than modified in someway by the electronics.

In this regard, IMHO, solid-state digital sound reproduction is "technically" superior to all the analog stuff, especially if the signal levels are kept within the dynamic range of the output amp. In this case, the speakers should be the limiting factor as far as sound quality is concerned.

Great post, and, again, it is new knowledge for me. Let me see if I can figure out how to answer properly.

I can't, so lets go with para numbers.

Para 1. That may be the best description of 'mellow' that I have ever seen, as well as making a lot of sense. Definitely something to watch for.

Para 2. No disagreement. Some great rocker once said, "If you don't hear it live, you ain't living."

Para 3. I agree whole-heartedly.

 

I hate to be this way, but they say they can tell....

I will not argue with you that that is what they say. But I've read scientific case studies where "audiophiles" were put in a room with an A/B switch and came up with the wrong answer 1/2 of the time.

It is a fact that everyone's ears are different -- genetically, physiologically, psychologically, and as a time-domain function as to how they were used over a lifetime. My high-frequency response is not what it was 30 years ago (too many Kiss concerts), so more treble sounds better to me than to a youngster, I am sure. And deep, heavy, bone-shaking bass drives me nuts.

My point is sound that is subjective, and different for everyone. I wish you luck in economically matching your tubes and in being financially successful (I am a capitalist!). Unfortunately, there will always be customers who will not be satisfied with what you offer -- no matter how good you do your job -- and they will be vocal about it. And, more others won't know the difference.

 

They stack a million dollars worth of transistorized stuff up against a matched pair of 12AX7s and say they can tell the difference.

I wouldn't dispute that there is a difference. What I dispute is that the tubes are more accurate. Quite the opposite. Introducing a distortion may produce something pleasing to some people, but it's an added effect that could be added digitally if you wanted to. And you get no choice with the tubes.

Ever play with professional guitarist software such as the stuff from Native Instruments? I can sit at my Mac and make it sound like my old Fender Tremolo tube amp - or a thousand other things - with the flip of a virtual switch. Why would I want an amp that sounds like one thing all the time no matter what?

One more rant against "audiophiles": If they can't describe all their adjectives with numbers, it's crap. Total, unmitigated crap. Words like "warm", "rich" and "airy" can be tied back to specific, measurable performance parameters related to specific phenomena (frequency, time delay, channel separation, etc.). Then there can be a useful discussion and comparison of how different equipment measures up. But to spew on and on with all those absurd adjectives about, for example, how one wire sounds better than another is pure fantasy. Human hearing and perception is pretty darn well understood, and to claim you have discovered some new phenomenon which cannot yet be measured is hubris and/or criminality of the first order.

 

I will not argue with you that that is what they say. But I've read scientific case studies where "audiophiles" were put in a room with an A/B switch and came up with the wrong answer 1/2 of the time.

It is a fact that everyone's ears are different -- genetically, physiologically, psychologically, and as a time-domain function as to how they were used over a lifetime. My high-frequency response is not what it was 30 years ago (too many Kiss concerts), so more treble sounds better to me than to a youngster, I am sure. And deep, heavy, bone-shaking bass drives me nuts.

My point is sound that is subjective, and different for everyone. I wish you luck in economically matching your tubes and in being financially successful (I am a capitalist!). Unfortunately, there will always be customers who will not be satisfied with what you offer -- no matter how good you do your job -- and they will be vocal about it. And, more others won't know the difference.

Oh yes. But some are willing to pay a LOT for things they think they hear. Or is it 'Keeping up with the Joneses'? (Bet you haven't heard that for a while. )

But if someone will pay big dollars to paint his astro-turf green, I will and have done it.

My goal is customer satisfaction, not profit, and I know that the profit part isn't what you are suggesting.

As I said, its a niche market. I want happy customers. Well, to be honest, my buddy handles the customers. I'm really just looking for a great learning experience. And this project has already pushed my electronics knowledge a LOT farther than it has ever been before.

 

Have fun and good luck. If it doesn't work out, you could always be a high-dollar capital criminal defense attorney -- "Stormy Starkweathers".

 

I wouldn't dispute that there is a difference. What I dispute is that the tubes are more accurate. Quite the opposite. Introducing a distortion may produce something pleasing to some people, but it's an added effect that could be added digitally if you wanted to. And you get no choice with the tubes.

Ever play with professional guitarist software such as the stuff from Native Instruments? I can sit at my Mac and make it sound like my old Fender Tremolo tube amp - or a thousand other things - with the flip of a virtual switch. Why would I want an amp that sounds like one thing all the time no matter what?

One more rant against "audiophiles": If they can't describe all their adjectives with numbers, it's crap. Total, unmitigated crap. Words like "warm", "rich" and "airy" can be tied back to specific, measurable performance parameters related to specific phenomena (frequency, time delay, channel separation, etc.). Then there can be a useful discussion and comparison of how different equipment measures up. But to spew on and on with all those absurd adjectives about, for example, how one wire sounds better than another is pure fantasy. Human hearing and perception is pretty darn well understood, and to claim you have discovered some new phenomenon which cannot yet be measured is hubris and/or criminality of the first order.

First, thank you for your input. I'm not sure 'more accurate is what they want. I suspect they are looking for something that makes them happy, whether they listen to it or not. (Did I say that? On a forum?)

I agree about the distortion. Synth music, Body music, where would we be without them?

I don't play guitar. Wish I could. Clarinet (all sizes) and Saxophone (all sizes) is as far as I got. Don't ever mention oboes to me. Even played well they sound like a bag pipe played by someone with only half of one lung left.

Para 3. I had no idea. Thank tou for a look at a very strange world. I still believe they are not telling the truth about the things the say the do, and don't hear, but that really isn't the problem.

Make them happy and they give you money. Make them sad and they sue you.

Once again, thanks for your input.

 

Have fun and good luck. If it doesn't work out, you could always be a high-dollar capital criminal defense attorney -- "Stormy Starkweathers".

Good thought, but I'm 100% disabled. While I was in the military . . . well, my body wasn't designed for the things I did.

Maybe another Perry Mason? No, I don't have the eyes . . . or the brains.