Interesting thread, but could someone fill me in on a piece of information I don't know: how efficiently does a fuel cell convert hydrogen into electricity?

 

According to the US Department of Energy Hydrogen Program, a standard fuel car with a combustion engine runs at around 20 per cent efficiency, whereas vehicles that run using hydrogen fuel cells are around 40 to 60 per cent efficient.May 31, 2022

 

The energy in 2.2 pounds (1 kilogram) of hydrogen gas is about the same as the energy in 1 gallon (6.2 pounds, 2.8 kilograms) of gasoline.

 

https://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/threads/hydrogen-as-fuel.70001/post-489427

 

https://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/threads/hydrogen-as-fuel.70001/post-489427

In modern (yet two-year old) news...
Honda offers the 2021 Honda Clarity, a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle with 360 mile range...
https://hondanews.com/en-US/honda-a...ce8b-2021-honda-clarity-fuel-cell-now-on-sale

 

In modern (yet two-year old) news...
Honda offers the 2021 Honda Clarity, a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle with 360 mile range...
https://hondanews.com/en-US/honda-a...ce8b-2021-honda-clarity-fuel-cell-now-on-sale

The clarity is limited to california and only as leases - a way of doing long term quality tests driven in real traffic by real drivers with access to a limited number of H2 charging stations.

 

The clarity is limited to california and only as leases - a way of doing long term quality tests driven in real traffic by real drivers with access to a limited number of H2 charging stations.

https://jalopnik.com/the-honda-clarity-is-dead-1847112400

I have bad news for all you hydrogen fans out there: Motor 1, and Asian business site Nikkei report that the Clarity is going out of production along with the closure of the Sayama, Japan, plant that produces it. It’s not just the hydrogen model leaving either. The plug-in hybrid is getting the ax as well. In a statement to Motor 1, a Honda rep confirmed the death:

Yes, there are still others in the very limited hydrogen car market.
https://www.caranddriver.com/hyundai/nexo
https://www.caranddriver.com/toyota/mirai

 

https://jalopnik.com/the-honda-clarity-is-dead-1847112400


Yes, there are still others in the very limited hydrogen car market.
https://www.caranddriver.com/hyundai/nexo
https://www.caranddriver.com/toyota/mirai

Honda announced it would be a limited production, a multi-year review and then will reassess. The fuel cell is not dead at Honda.

 

Honda announced it would be a limited production, a multi-year review and then will reassess. The fuel cell is not dead at Honda.

It's not dead, only wounded.

 

https://jalopnik.com/the-honda-clarity-is-dead-1847112400


Yes, there are still others in the very limited hydrogen car market.
https://www.caranddriver.com/hyundai/nexo
https://www.caranddriver.com/toyota/mirai

From car and driver...
they missed one critical High (added below
HIGHS

• Sultry bodywork,
• refined driving demeanor,
• great driving range.
• FASTER REFUELING THAN ANY OTHER EV

LOWS

• Costly starting price (Inline with other EVs)
• not as quick as other electric cars,
• limited hydrogen availability hinders its appeal.

 

I thought it would be better than that. If it is an aqueous electrolyte, then it's a pretty tall order keeping it cool when it has to dissipate 1kW for every 1kW it sends to the motor. At least it won't lose range by having to use fuel for the heater.
40% efficiency is no better than a diesel these days - I thought it would be an obvious choice whether to use hydrogen in a fuel cell or burn it in an internal combustion engine - it's not quite so clear-cut.

 

I thought it would be better than that. If it is an aqueous electrolyte, then it's a pretty tall order keeping it cool when it has to dissipate 1kW for every 1kW it sends to the motor. At least it won't lose range by having to use fuel for the heater.
40% efficiency is no better than a diesel these days - I thought it would be an obvious choice whether to use hydrogen in a fuel cell or burn it in an internal combustion engine - it's not quite so clear-cut.

Sun to solar panel,
solar panel to electrolysis electrode,
Electrode to water,
Water to hydrogen
hydrogen to low pressure tank A and Tank B
Use hydrogen in Tank A as fuel to compress fuel in tank B into vehicle's tank.

What's the concern with efficiency? Just because the fuel cell stack heats up a bit - no CO2 to the atmosphere either way. Is somebody charging you for sunlight or wind?

 

. Is somebody charging you for sunlight or wind?

No, but I bet they would be charging me for hydrogen.
I can imagine that the major suppliers will be doing everything they can to prevent people from producing their own hydrogen at home.

 

Sun to solar panel,
solar panel to electrolysis electrode,
Electrode to water,
Water to hydrogen
hydrogen to low pressure tank A and Tank B
Use hydrogen in Tank A as fuel to compress fuel in tank B into vehicle's tank.

What's the concern with efficiency? Just because the fuel cell stack heats up a bit - no CO2 to the atmosphere either way. Is somebody charging you for sunlight or wind?

Because solar panels, electrolysis electrodes and pressure tanks are not free. If it's more efficient -> solar panel into vehicle's battery that's a lot more likely to be practical in general use with no CO2 to the atmosphere.

 

Because solar panels, electrolysis electrodes and pressure tanks are not free. If it's more efficient -> solar panel into vehicle's battery that's a lot more likely to be practical in general use with no CO2 to the atmosphere.

But "more" efficient compared to what? What makes 40% a "bad" or "disappointing" efficiency value? Yes, more is always better but, please explain your comparison. I'm not sure what CO2 to the atmosphere you are talking about - the goal is to use hydrogen as storage for renewable electricity generation sources. Yes, the existing energy companies want you to use coal and oil and natural gas but, what's the point? It's much more fuel efficient to direct,y burn natural gas than it is to create hydrogen from natural gas and then burn hydrogen as a vehicle fuel. Compressed natural gas vehicles already exist - CH4 to H2 is a waste of energy, compression and more.

 

No, but I bet they would be charging me for hydrogen.
I can imagine that the major suppliers will be doing everything they can to prevent people from producing their own hydrogen at home.

Don't worry, nobody will be buying a 850-bar compressor for their MrHydrogen off-grid DIY compressor.

 

But "more" efficient compared to what? What makes 40% a "bad" or "disappointing" efficiency value? Yes, more is always better but, please explain your comparison. I'm not sure what CO2 to the atmosphere you are talking about - the goal is to use hydrogen as storage for renewable electricity generation sources. Yes, the existing energy companies want you to use coal and oil and natural gas but, what's the point? It's much more fuel efficient to direct,y burn natural gas than it is to create hydrogen from natural gas and then burn hydrogen as a vehicle fuel. Compressed natural gas vehicles already exist - CH4 to H2 is a waste of energy, compression and more.

Each energy conversion process has losses. Electrolysis is not as efficient as charging a modern EV battery. H2 and O must be recombined to generate electrical energy in a fuel cell car. That is not as efficient as a modern EV battery converting chemical energy back to electrical energy. These hydrogen storage and conversion losses waste valuable renewable resources.

https://www.spglobal.com/marketinte...y-disadvantage-in-power-storage-race-65162028
Hydrogen technology faces efficiency disadvantage in power storage race

The technology to convert power to hydrogen and back to power has a round-trip efficiency of 18%-46%, according to data that Flora presented from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and scientific journal Nature Energy. In comparison, two mature long-duration technologies, pumped-storage hydropower and compressed air energy storage, boast round-trip efficiencies of 70%-85% and 42%-67%, respectively. Flow batteries, a rechargeable fuel cell technology that is less mature, have a round-trip efficiency of 60%-80%.

 

Each energy conversion process has losses. Electrolysis is not as efficient as charging a modern EV battery. H2 and O must be recombined to generate electrical energy in a fuel cell car. That is not as efficient as a modern EV battery converting chemical energy back to electrical energy. These hydrogen storage and conversion losses waste valuable renewable resources.

https://www.spglobal.com/marketinte...y-disadvantage-in-power-storage-race-65162028
Hydrogen technology faces efficiency disadvantage in power storage race

Do you get all of your "facts" from a journalism major who no longer works for CNBC and now works for SBGlobal news? I'm sure he got all of his facts right and normalized all test methods across the different technologies. Heck, engineers don't make mistakes doing that, why would a journalism major? Check your sources next time. A hack article.

 

Do you get all of your "facts" from a journalism major who no longer works for CNBC and now works for SBGlobal news? I'm sure he got all of his facts right and normalized all test methods across the different technologies. Heck, engineers don't make mistakes doing that, why would a journalism major? Check your sources next time. A hack article.

Prove it's wrong. There are tons of research papers with much the same conclusion.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/hydrogen-energy-storage#:~:text=Efficiencies range from approximately 30,large scale combined cycle plants.
If you just want to argue with basic thermodynamics then have at it.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-03693-6
Overhyping hydrogen as a fuel risks endangering net-zero goals
Hydrogen is touted as a wonder fuel for everything from transport to home heating — but greener and more efficient options are often available.

 

There are tons of research papers with much the same conclusion.

Post two.