In other words, the free market dealt with the situation without the need for anti-gouging laws.

Imagine that.

Maybe the anti-price gouging laws are just a deterrent in case someone merely thinks they can get away with taking advantage of the victims.

It's like having laws against murder and rape. Most people don't want to commit those crimes in the first place, so the free market principle works quite well without the laws. However, there are always going to be people who think they can get away with committing crimes and those are the ones the laws are aimed at.

 

Hurricane Economics

In 2006, Sir Nicholas Stern, a British economist released the Stern Review Report on Climate Change and made the argument that the cost of mitigating climate change would be far less than the losses arising from the consequences if no action were taken.

Hurricanes and tornadoes have been going on for millions of years and they will continue going on for millions more years regardless of what people do (or spend) in an attempt to stop them from happening.

 

Hurricanes and tornadoes have been going on for millions of years and they will continue going on for millions more years regardless of what people do (or spend) in an attempt to stop them from happening.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_hurricanes

Yep. There Have been hundreds of them since this country was formed and interestingly despite what the AGW/CC crowd screams, they are on a rather noticeable diminishing trend and have been for some time.

Since the 1880's the long term data has been showing a easily observable trend of fewer happening, not more happening as the AGW/CC crowd wishes everyone to believe. Especially in the last decade when we were told unequivocally that there would be more than ever by the supposed experts of the early 2000's.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_hurricanes

 

It's not just the statistical number of hurricanes that's important, it's also the amount of property available for them to damage.

As more and more land is developed, there will be more property in the path of a given storm. In sparsely developed Kansas, tornadoes routinely go through the countryside without causing much damage except to agriculture. However, if Kansas was as heavily developed as the San Francisco area or Southern California, every tornado would be the moral equivalent of a bowling ball hitting a cluster of 10 pins.

 

It's not just the statistical number of hurricanes that's important, it's also the amount of property available for them to damage.

As more and more land is developed, there will be more property in the path of a given storm. In sparsely developed Kansas, tornadoes routinely go through the countryside without causing much damage except to agriculture. However, if Kansas was as heavily developed as the San Francisco area or Southern California, every tornado would be the moral equivalent of a bowling ball hitting a cluster of 10 pins.

Exactly and that development of land and the resulting damage potential has nothing to do with the climate doing anything. It's all human development on the ground that runs those numbers up.

 

Yes, In areas where not everyone in business or otherwise is unconsciously greedy free market keeps things in check or more to the point gives a greater chance of someone turning the table on the greedy and leaving them at a loose even.

Whereas if you are in an area where there is little moral conscience in business anti gouging laws are necessary to create saem effect of putting the hurt on the greedy. I don't see either as being too difficult to understand.
If anything I dare say the only people who are ever against anti gouging laws are the one who tend to follow greedy and crooked actions to gain an advantage over and off of the less fortunate.

As someone who does not subscribe to such a moral ambiguity I have no issue with whether local self governing free market or legal action prevents people in need from being ripped off by the greedy. I'm not in that greed camp so either way has zero bearing on my actions.

It's also why if placed in your position with having spare generators and supplies I would be loaning them out for free just to make sure people like you have less chance of screwing someone over for exorbitant amounts of money for used gear. It's what I do to keep a free market system honest! Same with ratting out the greedy I do come across so that others can avoid them later.

Feel more than free to loan them out to anyone that comes along (just don't expect to ever see them again). That's your right and it's part of a free market. I imagine that you would agree that laws shouldn't be passed to prevent you from loaning them out for free. Yet there are numerous instances where such laws have indeed been passed on the basis that people giving away certain things or undercutting the going price deprives people that depend on the sales of those items for their livelihood. Somehow I also have a feeling that you would also be opposed to the passage of some law that cut the rate that you can charge for what you do in half on the basis that doing so would reduce unemployment and prices. Your position might well be that those laws would be unfair because you aren't being greedy but the laws restricting other people are fine because they are being greedy. However, that doesn't really matter because you aren't the one that decides who is being greedy and who isn't. When you give the government power to decide what price Bob can and can't sell something for, you've also given them the power to decide the same thing for you.

 

Exactly and that development of land and the resulting damage potential has nothing to do with the climate doing anything. It's all human development on the ground that runs those numbers up.

And that is exactly the point. Population has grown from 1 billion to 7 billion over the last 200 years, building and developing in places that are prone to flooding, putting more demands and stress on the environment, without creating the resilience necessary for human survival.

Desperate consumers were seen flocking to stores to buy bottled water that have been sold out long ago. That is not a pretty picture of resilience.

 

Tell me more about this when Irma is on top of you. When every road into and out of your county is flooded or blocked with debris and no one can get in to sell you overpriced Goods.

Oh, I should point out that the track of this storm has us all trapped. Evacuation is no longer an option for most. Can't go north, east, or west without an equal chance of the storm following right behind you, and there's not enough gas along the route to get you out of the way.

This is gonna be a tough one for a lot of people.

I am very sorry to hear this. Looking back on what was said, it almost looks like I wished this on you. That's not the case. I feel for you and wish you the best.

Not tonight. I am too damn tired. [...] I've been busting my ass for two days. I don't have a debate left in me.

I know the feeling. The physical exhaustion is compounded by the mental exhaustion.

 

Hi,

Interesting observations in this thread.

I just wanted to add that computer models that predict the route a hurricane will take have been getting much better over the years. One such model is now able to predict the path within about 70 miles. So now we know when we are going to get screwed beforehand
Unfortunately 70 miles still isnt quite good enough because a difference of around 30 miles could be the difference between some damage and total disaster to an area, it's getting better. Also, i have been following model data and the actual hurricane path for Irma and found that the predictions so far do seem to fall within about a 30 mile range for the eye.

Sadly, it looks like Florida is in big trouble. Set to touch down near the southern tip around 2am Sunday.

 

Feel more than free to loan them out to anyone that comes along (just don't expect to ever see them again). That's your right and it's part of a free market. I imagine that you would agree that laws shouldn't be passed to prevent you from loaning them out for free. Yet there are numerous instances where such laws have indeed been passed on the basis that people giving away certain things or undercutting the going price deprives people that depend on the sales of those items for their livelihood. Somehow I also have a feeling that you would also be opposed to the passage of some law that cut the rate that you can charge for what you do in half on the basis that doing so would reduce unemployment and prices. Your position might well be that those laws would be unfair because you aren't being greedy but the laws restricting other people are fine because they are being greedy. However, that doesn't really matter because you aren't the one that decides who is being greedy and who isn't. When you give the government power to decide what price Bob can and can't sell something for, you've also given them the power to decide the same thing for you.

Well that all just sounds childishly ignorant to the point of trollish given the wildly irrational speculations and assumptions required to justify it all. Especially for a moderator.

Do you honestly think I would ever be in favor of any law that prevents good people from helping others especially as someone who strongly believes in and supports the concept of a fair and free market where anyone is allowed to set the lower end value of anything by their own good will towards others through their actions?

 

Here are some questions:

If you live in a hurricane prone region why aren't you preparing well ahead of time?

Why are you buying plywood for every storm? Why don't you have storm shutters?

Why aren't you stocked up on food and water well before the season gets here?

I just don't understand it. These storms used to happen every year (we have been pretty lucky the past few years). This isn't like a nuclear attack or a zombie apocalypse. You are pretty certain it is going to happen some time during the summer.

Be prepared and you don't need to worry about gouging. The only thing I see is with gasoline. You can help that by making sure the tank is filled during hurricane season.

 

I just don't understand it. These storms used to happen every year (we have been pretty lucky the past few years). This isn't like a nuclear attack or a zombie apocalypse. You are pretty certain it is going to happen some time during the summer.

Similar to the time I was a kid. Every year or so the Ohio River would flood real bad, and peoples houses would get wiped out. After decades of this happening and the people rebuilding on the same place, the government stepped in and said no more. The flood plains were made into a "no build" zone.

 

In the line of being prepared. My all time favorite island in the BVI used to be Gorda Rock. A tiny little island in Leverick Bay on Virgin Gorda. I would pick up a mooring at the Bitter end and take the dinghy over the bar on Gorda Rock. The "bar" was not much more than a tiny shack. It was owned by an older man from the states. His name was Kilbride. A real character. At 92 still SCUBA diving for lobster. I would grab a burger and beer for lunch and enjoy the afternoon listening to the jukebox

I did not realize it at the time but 1996 was the last time I would ever get to enjoy a burger and beer on my tiny little island. That was the year of Bertha (Hows the weather thread for another story on that).
I returned a year later and found my bar to be closed. I went to the bar at the Bitter End for lunch. Mr. Kilbride was at the bar. I bought him a drink and told him how much I enjoyed his bar and how disappointed I was to see it close. He explained that at 93 hew was too old to be putting another roof back on the bar.

Another year went by. I visited the area again to find a man from California had built a resort on the island. It was so huge you could hardly see the island. I noticed stakes in the ground near the building. The new owner told me that they are tie down stakes. Before a hurricane, he has a huge net installed over the building and tied to the stakes embedded in the rock of the island.

THAT is prepared!

 

Similar to the time I was a kid. Every year or so the Ohio River would flood real bad, and peoples houses would get wiped out. After decades of this happening and the people rebuilding on the same place, the government stepped in and said no more. The flood plains were made into a "no build" zone.

Don't know about this specific area but often this is different. Sadly many of these people can't afford to move. They don't have the money to be able to just walk away.

 

Here are some questions:

If you live in a hurricane prone region why aren't you preparing well ahead of time?

Why are you buying plywood for every storm? Why don't you have storm shutters?

Why aren't you stocked up on food and water well before the season gets here?

I just don't understand it. These storms used to happen every year (we have been pretty lucky the past few years). This isn't like a nuclear attack or a zombie apocalypse. You are pretty certain it is going to happen some time during the summer.

Be prepared and you don't need to worry about gouging. The only thing I see is with gasoline. You can help that by making sure the tank is filled during hurricane season.

Same thoughts here as well. I don't know of a single person who lives in my area, who is native or at least has lived here for several years, that doesn't go into to winter or a expected storm without having prepared to the best of their capacities for it or at least has direct contact to some friend or family member who they can work with.

To me anyone who can not make forward planning to protect themselves from a well known possible and likely situation is dumb.

I do my best to go into winter with all my heating and general fuel reserves, like propane, at 100%+ anticipated needed capacity and I do it as cheaply as possible by having my fuel tanks filled in the middle of summer when bulk prices are the lowest for the year which most years is a 2:1 savings and some years it has proven to be near 4:1 savings which when buying 1000+ gallons that huge reason to plan way ahead just for the financial reasons.

Same with winter storms. If I hear ones coming that might be bad I go grocery shopping a day or more head of when its supposed to get here plus I make sure I have my collection generators and backup heaters working plus enough fuel for them on hand to run myself and possibly 2 - 3 others for a least a few days if necessary.

 

Similar to the time I was a kid. Every year or so the Ohio River would flood real bad, and peoples houses would get wiped out. After decades of this happening and the people rebuilding on the same place, the government stepped in and said no more. The flood plains were made into a "no build" zone.

The reverse happened here and no one can give me any explanations for it.

Around 2011 we had what was likely the largest and longest recorded flood in our area history yet today they are building higher end homes and residential developments all over the now well known and defined flood plain despite all of the talk after the floods that all of the floodplain was going to be designated as a restricted build zone where only a limited type of non residential and specific commercial structures, if any, could be built.

 

Do you honestly think I would ever be in favor of any law that prevents good people from helping others ...

You're confusing me. Earlier you said you had no problem with government controlling market prices. Central control inevitably hurts people, often the very people the law was allegedly designed to help. Now you're implying you don't support that. Which is it?

 

I know the feeling. The physical exhaustion is compounded by the mental exhaustion

And I've had a cold for the past 3 days.

 

And I've had a cold for the past 3 days.

Well that sucks big time.

 

To me anyone who can not make forward planning to protect themselves from a well known possible and likely situation is dumb.

Hi,

You mean like no current limit in a battery charger when you know there are known dangers in charging batteries?

Seriously though, i also believe in being well prepared beforehand. Having backup systems helps a lot too.

My preparedness for the Florida hurricane season is *do not move to Florida*.
Someone i know suggested moving there, i know two other people who moved there from here, and one of them actually moved to Miami. I wonder how they like the place now