How can I monitor the status of a mechanical switch in a Bowling Machine controll.

Thread Starter

Qsilverrdc

Joined Aug 3, 2014
66
I have a bowling machine control, a partial modified schematic below. I only have access to the control at the interface pins, J#'s.
I do not have access to the full wave +24vdc. No J# on the interface pins.

I would like to monitor the status of switch SW4, regardless of the state of the push button. (The push button represents a lot of circuitry. )
I would like to do the monitoring of SW4 with 5Volt logic.

A simplified how it works: a momentary pulse to PR2, sealing PR2 ON thru SW5. This also turns ON PR1. PR1 starts bowling pins moving down a conveyor with a mechanical counter 0-9. As the first pin passes the mechanical counter SW5 state is switched maintaining PR1 and unsealing PR2. SW4, a home switch, will open as the first pin is loaded into the table, and close when all pins have been loaded. Counter SW5 is back on zero, and returns to the state shown. Keep in mind this is late 50's tech and uses a stepper relay. If there is interest I will post the full schematic.
SmartSelect_20210318-093249_Autodesk SketchBook.jpg
 

Yaakov

Joined Jan 27, 2019
3,161
My first impulse is to put a low voltage high frequency signal on the two pins and detect presence or absence of it capacitively coupled. It will not interact with the DC signal.
 

Yaakov

Joined Jan 27, 2019
3,161
Alternatively, you might just be able to put 5V from an isolated supply across the switch through a biggish resistor to get a couple of mA when the switch is closed.
 

Yaakov

Joined Jan 27, 2019
3,161

sghioto

Joined Dec 31, 2017
2,363
I think this would require the 5 volt system to be floating on the 24v. Otherwise when sw4 is closed the coil PR2 would just turn on. BTW I have little mosfet experience.
No because diodes D1 and D2 isolate the 5 volt supply therefore relay PR2 can only activate when using the push button.
Mosfet no different then a standard transistor.
1616874723741.png
 

sghioto

Joined Dec 31, 2017
2,363
Here's a version using an optocoupler that completely isolates the 5 volt supply.
Will need a connection to the negative side of the 24 volt supply.
There is a constant 5 ma through PR2 but should not activate relay.
1616894711500.png
 
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MisterBill2

Joined Jan 23, 2018
8,773
The neon optoisolator with an appropriate isolated AC source and a suitable current limiting resistor. I suggest neon because it is far more forgiving of assorted higher voltage spikes, and with the statement that "the pushbutton represents a lot of additional circuits we have no clue about assorted spikes. Neon device last a very long time, many years if not overly abused.
 
What i was thinking, but I don't know if you have access to it. Put a resistor across the pushbutton that can supply say 5 mA. Not enough to pull in the relay. Now put an OPTOMOS relay which needs about 1 mA across the contact to be monitored. The "coil" is a LED that only needs 1 mA.
 

AnalogKid

Joined Aug 1, 2013
9,257
1. Is the 24 Vdc filtered at all, or is it plain full-wave rectified AC all the way down to zero-crossing points?

2. From the schematic it looks lik there is 0 V across the switch when closed. When it is open, what is there? With a battery-powered DVM, what do you get in both AC and DC modes? A scope shot would be great if you have a floating or battery-powered scope.

With this, then some form of post #6 or #9, powered by a USB 5 V wall wart, should get you a clear signal. I think opamps first, but the optocoupler idea should work, assuming that 1950'2 t4ech can spare a few mA leaking across the open contacts. 50 mA seems high to me for the LED current; plus, that might be enough to cause something to move. I'd go with an opto with 100% CTR and drop the LED current to something under 5 mA.

ak
 

sghioto

Joined Dec 31, 2017
2,363
50 mA seems high to me for the LED current;
With reference to post #9.
That's only if the "push button" closed while SW4 is open which shouldn't happen according to the operation in post #1.
The actual current, factoring in the resistance of the relay coil, would be less.
 
Last edited:

MisterBill2

Joined Jan 23, 2018
8,773
Given that the TS understands how the circuit actually works, and given that the portion in that line represented by the push button is more complex, what is the problem with the neon opto-isolator mentioned by Max in post #4, and with additional comments in post #10?
The TS has already mentioned that much of the circuit is not accessible, and from the portion that we can see, there is a fair amount of inductive spikes from those power relay coils. And the circuits with digital logic will need regulated isolated supplies. So the neon scheme can use either a separate transformer to provide an isolated 100 volts or so at as much as 3mA, or a capacitively coupled voltage doubler off the transformer secondary to provide about 100 volts DC for the neon scheme.
 

sghioto

Joined Dec 31, 2017
2,363
And the circuits with digital logic will need regulated isolated supplies.
That goes without saying as the TS mentioned: " I would like to do the monitoring of SW4 with 5Volt logic."
No problem using a neon optocoupler other then it would require a 100 volt supply.
Personally I don't see the need.
 

MisterBill2

Joined Jan 23, 2018
8,773
That goes without saying as the TS mentioned: " I would like to do the monitoring of SW4 with 5Volt logic."
No problem using a neon optocoupler other then it would require a 100 volt supply.
Personally I don't see the need.
I must have missed that part. But "you can't always get what you want" .
 

MisterBill2

Joined Jan 23, 2018
8,773
OK, the witch can also be monitored using only a low coil current 5 volt relay, a diode rated at least 50 PRV, and an isolated power supply of about 5 to 6 volts. The diode installed to block the 24 volt supply voltage when the witch is open and the PB circuit is closed. No electronics needed. The relay should have a fairly high coil resistance to avoid having much current pass through the switch. AND no spike-prevention diode can be used here.
 

Thread Starter

Qsilverrdc

Joined Aug 3, 2014
66
Here is the full schematic, diagram. I guess by trying to simplifying the circuit diagram, I may have confused the question.
The pinspotter states are controlled with a 6 level mechanical step relay. Access to the controll circuits for monitoring must be limited to the J#s, as these are the chassis interconnect on the machine, to the 6525 chassis.
6525 chassis.jpg
SmartSelect_20210331-105727_Adobe Acrobat.jpg
 
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